90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

I have a couple of pounds of VV 550 I was planning on starting with.
VV supply looks very good now with Peter Dobson on the job.
I'll need 1000 Bergers too Jerry when they arrive.
 
mysticplayer said:
One thing that will never change, the 308/200+gr shooter will have to put up with ALOT more recoil and barrel heat. For some shooters, that extra boot can start to fatigue them later in the match. Some will develop a flinch.
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Got recoil?
This will fix it.

TubeGunBipod1.jpg
 
mysticplayer said:
There are two divisions in F class. Open and TR.

TR only allows 223 and 308 cartridges but no limit on bullet weight.

Open, allows most any chambering and cals up to 8mm.

So a 22.250 could be used in Open but not in TR.

Jerry
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Does the 223 Wylde still qualify as a 223?
 
Technically..... I would leave that up to the match director :)

How's that for lame?

As long as the chamber is not larger then SAAMI max, I would say it is legal. ALL F TR rifles are throated WAY longer then SAAMI so that can never be an argument for legality.

But if the chamber 'improves' or increases the case volume over SAAMI, then that would be illegal.

My guess at larger matches, the director would have a chamber or headspace guage to confirm the chamber is within spec. Then there would be an ammo guage to ensure the ammo is not oversized.

Use a Field gauge so there can be no fight on the thou variance from gauge manf.

Would be super easy to check at the weigh in....

Jerry
 
Nice looking rig Alex you will make the .308 shooters pay attention in F/TR get those 90gr Bergers over 2800 fps
manitou
 
New powders are on their way. I was thinking I would see any till spring 2011 so Christmas has been good.

I will test 4 powders of which I will keep to myself until I get some lead sent.

Will test them in my Savage 223 Shilen tactical rifle as I dont have my FTR rig together at this time.

Try to get some chronie info in the coming weeks - maybe get some spare time over the holidays.

Keep you all posted.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Thought I would start a new thread as there seems to be alot of interest AND it keeps the info in one place.

The purpose of this thread will be gather info and testing from shooters on the 22cal 90gr Berger VLD and its use in 223 and other cartridges. My focus is its application with respect to F class shooting. Would love to hear input from other disciplines like High Power/Palma, Tactical, even hunting.

From Bryan Litz's new book, the G7 Average from 3000fps to 1500fps is 0.281. The G1 average is 0.551.

This provides some very exciting potential performance not seen in this cal before.

For comparison: All G7 average data from Bryan's book.

Berger 6mm 105gr VLD 0.272
Berger 6mm 108gr BT 0.262
Berger 6mm 115gr VLD 0.279
DTAC 6mm 115gr 0.276
Hornady 6mm 105gr Amax 0.252
Sierra 6mm 107gr MK 0.261

Berger 22cal 90gr VLD 0.281

Berger 130gr 6.5mm VLD 0.282
Berger 140gr 6.5mm VLD 0.313
Hornady 140gr Amax 0.299
Lapua 139gr Scenar 0.285
Sierra 142gr MK 0.301

Berger 30cal 185gr VLD 0.281

YES, this particular 22cal bullet has a BC that BEATS ALL commonly used 6mm VLD/Match bullets readily available in the Canadian market and knocks on the door of the larger 6.5's.

In a 22BR/Dasher or 22/250, this bullet can easily go 2900 to a possible high of 3200fps. Run the numbers and this puts it right there with many popular options. All with substanitally less recoil and less component costs.

For mid range F/O, this could really help recoil shy shooters get into the game and be very competitive. At 3000fps, this 22 will equal my 6.5 Mystic pushing 139gr Lapua Scenars for wind drift and push the shooter with 50% of the recoil.

Not bad, not bad at all....

In a 223, it may change the F T/R landscape. Finally, there is a bullet that can run with a super sized 308 all the way out to 1000yds. Again, recoil shy shooters can compete on an equal footing and for substantially less cost. What a great way to get juniors and ladies involved. And shooters like me who have been there and been beat up by the 308 enough to look for gentler options.

As a quick ballpark, shooting this 223 combo is about 1/2 the cost of shooting a 308 and 1/3 the cost of common F/Open options. It might be even cheaper depending on the cost of barrel replacement.

This has certainly caught the eye of some very talented shooters both in Canada and the US.

I hope that we can post links to their developments so this post can be a ready reference for this data.

Areas we need to figure out ASAP:
-required twist rates vs muzzle velocities
-Maximum working velocities for 223 and other chamberings.
-Load data - chamber info would be helpful too. Distances to lands
-Muzzle velocities at various barrel lengths
-Accuracy both good and bad
-Rifle set up.

I will be getting a box of 90gr VLD's shortly to test in my 22" Shilen 8 twist 223 Savage. The initial goal will be to see if the 8 twist is enough twist. Then get some general data for Varget and possibly H4350 (doubt it will work given my shorter throat length).

Look forward to your info.

Jerry
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Hey Jerry,

I didn't have time to read through all 28 pages. You probably have it figures out quite nicely by now what works.

If you like I wrote a little excel program to look at stability on all of the .224 cal bullets in the Litz's book. If you would like a copy pm me an e-mail address. Just a quick looks like the 90 gr VLD berger stable to about +100' Density Altitude out of a 223 at 2650fps. (45F 29.00"HG Absolute) out of the 1 in 8 twist.

The sheet allows you to input muzzle velocity, barrel twist Temp Absolute pressure and generates Miller Stability, Density Altitude and bullet RPM.

Anyone else want to play around with it PM me an address.

Cheers
 
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HiFly very good info you posted on the 90gr Bergers, I sure had fun last year shooting the 223 in F/Tr class, got some funny looks on fellows faces shooting the .308 mostly 155gr when they would ask me how much wind did I have on, and I would have 1moa+ less than the .308 They just couldn't beleive how a 223 had less wind drift. Got some luck and won the longrange chalange at Connaught last summer 7,8, & 900m
Twist 1/7 30 Tru-Flite 2820fps seem to be most accurate for my gun .2s at 100.
there are quite a few fellows in Ottawa shooting the 223.
I watch two fellows shoot 5 shot groups at 300y One a 28" Hart 1/7,one a kreiger 28" 1/7.8 twist out of 6 groups they fired all where under 1" and 3 under .620 smallest .520"
one fellow had his first 4 shots at .340" all using 12 by 42 NF scopes both shooting off sinclair Bi-pods. I am pretty sure the 223 rem with the 80 & 90 gr bullets in a benchrest shoot at 100,200 & 300y they will outrun the 6br and 6ppc shooting 68gr to 90 bullets. probably wont beat them at 100 but 200 and for sure 300 they will outscore them if there is any conditions. Some benchrest guys think I nuts but remember the 222 still holds record at 100y
My new build for benchrest & short F class will be underway soon 224 cal with a new case, friend in USA told me this will run with the 6ppc & 6br
 
manitou210;5454283 remember the 222 still holds record at 100y [/QUOTE said:
I see this reference a lot, so I'll let the cat out of the bag for those that don't know the whole story. For clarity, this record is still hotly contested due to a lot of people thinking it is merely a single shot.

It was range measured less than .224", ie typical for a single bullet passing through target paper. You should also know the moving backer system was reconfigured after this record was shot. Lastly you should know that the owner of this rifle didn't even win the agg he was in, the rest of the groups he shot were in the .500" range.

In spite of the official record, the 222 is not competitive at 100 and 200 yard BR. If you want to run a 22 in 100 and 200 yard BR there are several variants of the short 22PPC that can run with the 6PPC, but are very finicky to make work, and the lack of good quality 22 cal bullets is the real problem here.
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222 & 223

Hi Rpollock you may be right that the 222 rem does not hold the record at 100
but I have seen some 222 rem light V shoot some very small groups at 100 well under .200". maybe not small enough to beat the 6mmppc & 6mmbrs.
But really benchrest shooting was done at 100,200 & 300 when I shot benchrest seems today in Canada its mostly 100 & 200 yards.
There is a few fellows in Ottawa shooting the 223 rem in Fclass and I realize that they have 28" |& 30 "barrels and are way two heavy to shoot in 10.5 class.
We shoot for fun and some times for small change or a $5 The fellows shooting 22-250 HV, 30br barrels and the 6mmbr custom benchrest can do very well at 100 & 200 But they are nearly as good as the 223 shooting 80 & 90gr at 300y they fade bad after 200 yards when there are conditions, in perfect conditions they do well at 100 & 200 just so so at 300y. there are some 30br that are tough to beat at short distances, but in my time shooting benchrest we plugged all holes with a 30cal plug, advantage = .224cal
Now in saying all this if the 6mm where to shoot the 107gr+ bullets there would be considerable differance than what most shooters using 68gr etc (light bullets)
I am not trying to flame this thread its just what I have observed of the last couple years.
the 223 at 100 can be respectable at 100 with 90gr fellows shooting the 6br better be paying attention to flags because they will have there hands full.
manitou
P1060917.jpg


here is my 222rem factory Rem 700 HV 53gr Match Kings
rem700XCRLongrangeTactical015.jpg
 
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