Yup! The gas system HAS TO BE TUNED to the load your shooting!!! When set right, it runs 110%!!!
Portugese Nato Ball, the gas setting is bottom +7
MFS 145 grain SP, the gas setting is bottom +5
Cheers
Jay
So, is the RFB all that we thought it'd be?
- Thread starter peter2772000
- Start date
Yup! The gas system HAS TO BE TUNED to the load your shooting!!! When set right, it runs 110%!!!
Portugese Nato Ball, the gas setting is bottom +7
MFS 145 grain SP, the gas setting is bottom +5
Cheers
Jay
Man, how do three shot groups mean nothing? They are the industry standard. Most rifles, especially in a 7.62 or something with a higher powder capacity, start to send fliers as the barrel heats up. Most rifle companies with accuracy guarantees use three shot groups as their template. And as for hunting, if you cant drop a deer with less then three shots you need a lot more practice. I think of the many deer I have dropped over the years, ranging from 25 feet to 350 plus yards, I have only shot more then once maybe 2 or 3 times. Same goes for most defensive situations. Even in body armour, most will drop from one center mass shot of 7.62. And I dont think there are many that could keep standing after a tripple tap in the chest even with level III body armour. So really, in my opinion, a tight 10 shot group without cool down is nice of course but, has very little real world value unless you are in the trenches maybe.
They retail for about 4990CHF in Switzerland at today's exchange rate that is approximately $5580Cdn.
They are great guns, but the Swiss Franc seems to be staying high for the time being.
I will rephrase - 3 round groups mean very little statistically, and nothing to me personally. Why? Because the greater your sample size, the closer your measurement will be to the actual value. You could shoot 1 round ‘groups’ and infer from the data that you have a perfect laser rifle, but that would obviously be a highly inaccurate statement. A 3 shot group is much better than a 1 shot group but still does not hold much statistical significance. Of course it is not practical to shoot 100+ round groups, so we need to stick to more practical group sizes.
You are correct, and it is unfortunate that 3 round groups are very common amongst the shooting industry – especially by entities with an interest in showing you a rifle in its most favorable (and biased light). There are several reasons for this:
Manufacturers obviously want you to think their product is as accurate as possible; the same rifle might reliably produce 1/2 MOA 3 round groups or 1 MOA 10 round groups – which sounds better?
Magazines make good revenue from advertising. How likely would a rifle manufacturer be to advertize in a magazine that reviews their rifle as 1/2 MOA (3 round groups); how likely would they be to advertise in a magazine reviewing their rifle as a 1 MOA rifle (10 shot groups)? How often do you read a scathing review about a rifle in a magazine?
Just as a casino knows you have a better chance of holding a single Ace in your hand than you do of holding 3 aces, a rifle company with an accuracy guarantees knows that you have a better chance of producing a 3 round group of any given size than a 5 round group of that same size.
Granted, a rifle may shoot less accurately if the barrel is hotter, but who said not to let the barrel cool down between shots? The statistical word for “fliers” would be “outliers”.
“If you can’t drop a deer with one shot you won’t with 3 shots” – this idea is 100% correct but irrelevant to the statistics. How many shots you shoot before measuring your group has nothing to do with how many shots you may need to take while hunting. What the number of shots in your group does tell you is how confident you can be that you could shoot that precisely again.
Well that was kinda long... I guess I could have just said that 3 rounds give less confidence that you can reproduce your results than a group shot with more shots. If you like 3 round groups shoot more of them and combine them so that two 3 round groups equal a 6 round group.
Precision guys never get any love in a black rifle or hunting forum
After reading this thread I miss my RFB... but it is with a better owner now, one who shoots it the way it was meant to be shot and not like a precision rifle
Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
Hmm... might just have been a bad one then.
Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I got news for ya......I don't give a crap whatsoever about groups. 3-10-100 rounds or otherwise.
I'm not using my guns to put neat little clusters on a piece of paper, I'm using them to kill something.
So to me, the ONLY group that matters in the least is the "One shot cold barrel" group.
As long as shot 1 goes where I point it, that's all that matters
I'm not using my guns to put neat little clusters on a piece of paper, I'm using them to kill something.
So to me, the ONLY group that matters in the least is the "One shot cold barrel" group.
As long as shot 1 goes where I point it, that's all that matters
I will rephrase - 3 round groups mean very little statistically, and nothing to me personally. Why? Because the greater your sample size, the closer your measurement will be to the actual value. You could shoot 1 round ‘groups’ and infer from the data that you have a perfect laser rifle, but that would obviously be a highly inaccurate statement. A 3 shot group is much better than a 1 shot group but still does not hold much statistical significance. Of course it is not practical to shoot 100+ round groups, so we need to stick to more practical group sizes.
You are correct, and it is unfortunate that 3 round groups are very common amongst the shooting industry – especially by entities with an interest in showing you a rifle in its most favorable (and biased light). There are several reasons for this:
Manufacturers obviously want you to think their product is as accurate as possible; the same rifle might reliably produce 1/2 MOA 3 round groups or 1 MOA 10 round groups – which sounds better?
Magazines make good revenue from advertising. How likely would a rifle manufacturer be to advertize in a magazine that reviews their rifle as 1/2 MOA (3 round groups); how likely would they be to advertise in a magazine reviewing their rifle as a 1 MOA rifle (10 shot groups)? How often do you read a scathing review about a rifle in a magazine?
Just as a casino knows you have a better chance of holding a single Ace in your hand than you do of holding 3 aces, a rifle company with an accuracy guarantees knows that you have a better chance of producing a 3 round group of any given size than a 5 round group of that same size.
Granted, a rifle may shoot less accurately if the barrel is hotter, but who said not to let the barrel cool down between shots? The statistical word for “fliers” would be “outliers”.
“If you can’t drop a deer with one shot you won’t with 3 shots” – this idea is 100% correct but irrelevant to the statistics. How many shots you shoot before measuring your group has nothing to do with how many shots you may need to take while hunting. What the number of shots in your group does tell you is how confident you can be that you could shoot that precisely again.
Well that was kinda long... I guess I could have just said that 3 rounds give less confidence that you can reproduce your results than a group shot with more shots. If you like 3 round groups shoot more of them and combine them so that two 3 round groups equal a 6 round group.
Precision guys never get any love in a black rifle or hunting forum
After reading this thread I miss my RFB... but it is with a better owner now, one who shoots it the way it was meant to be shot and not like a precision rifle
peter2772000
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Wow, thanks for all your responses. Gave me a much better idea of this rifle. One question; Has anyone running the stock mag had feeding issues that were not related to the proper adjustment of the gas valve?
I think I'll go for it. I'll prolly have to wait to get it, but I can't see myself forking out a few bucks less for a used gun with non-OEM stuff hanging off it that I may/may not like when I can get a brand-spanking new one for a paltry $100 more.
From what I've noticed though, the Elcan DR is gonna be tuff to find used, unlike the popular .223 versions. Funny, 'cause when I was shopping for one earlier this year, the .308 versions seemed to be all over the place.
Again, thx to all for your input
I think I'll go for it. I'll prolly have to wait to get it, but I can't see myself forking out a few bucks less for a used gun with non-OEM stuff hanging off it that I may/may not like when I can get a brand-spanking new one for a paltry $100 more.
From what I've noticed though, the Elcan DR is gonna be tuff to find used, unlike the popular .223 versions. Funny, 'cause when I was shopping for one earlier this year, the .308 versions seemed to be all over the place.
Again, thx to all for your input
Wow, thanks for all your responses. Gave me a much better idea of this rifle. One question; Has anyone running the stock mag had feeding issues that were not related to the proper adjustment of the gas valve?
I think I'll go for it. I'll prolly have to wait to get it, but I can't see myself forking out a few bucks less for a used gun with non-OEM stuff hanging off it that I may/may not like when I can get a brand-spanking new one for a paltry $100 more.
From what I've noticed though, the Elcan DR is gonna be tuff to find used, unlike the popular .223 versions. Funny, 'cause when I was shopping for one earlier this year, the .308 versions seemed to be all over the place.
Again, thx to all for your input
So what swayd you by curiousity?
Like all these type of post, "Nothing", he has already made his mind up long ago, he just needed that extra push
Make sure to get the bottom rail it's $55 and worth it for this rifle. It allows you to put a vertical grip, bipod or anything else there. It also helps give the front polymer a more substantial feel. I'm not huge on rails but in this case it should come with the firearm and was one add on that I felt was a solid purchase.
Yes, and that was the subject of the thread I linked to above... I had to lubricate the inside of my magazines to get them to work. Before lubrication they would not work at all no matter what gas setting I tried. The idea sounded silly to me but it worked!
If you have feeding issues try lubricating the inside of the magazine body and the sides of the follower!
I 100% agree with all of this! See photo below. Good for bipods or even lights...although I hate vertical grips
That is indeed what this rifle was made forI got news for ya......I don't give a crap whatsoever about groups. 3-10-100 rounds or otherwise.
I'm not using my guns to put neat little clusters on a piece of paper, I'm using them to kill something.
So to me, the ONLY group that matters in the least is the "One shot cold barrel" group.
As long as shot 1 goes where I point it, that's all that matters
So why is the precision guy the only one to have killed something with an RFB yet? Maybe someone else has, but I think I am the only one to post photos yet. Also, I want to see photos of every deer taken with an RFB.
Throttle_monkey1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yes, and that was the subject of the thread I linked to above... I had to lubricate the inside of my magazines to get them to work. Before lubrication they would not work at all no matter what gas setting I tried. The idea sounded silly to me but it worked!
If you have feeding issues try lubricating the inside of the magazine body and the sides of the follower!
I 100% agree with all of this! See photo below. Good for bipods or even lights...although I hate vertical grips
That is indeed what this rifle was made for
I shot a small black bear with mine in spring. 165grain interbond blew right through him.
I feel extremely lucky to have got to shoot the SAPR, and I know for sure that I'm going to buy one. My AR project has been completely cancelled, my truck restoration project has been put on hold until the SAPR is in my safe.
I figured it would be somewhere around this price, and frankly it's worth every penny of it. By far the nicest rifle I've ever had the pleasure of shooting and handling. The controls and operation came naturally to me, and it was a really joy getting to shoot it.
Throttle_monkey1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Around 80 yards. Clean pass through the front shoulders. He made it about 5 yards after being hit.
