Mini 14 and why do some oppose

Kind of OT...

I've had very limited exposure to AKs but from what I understand the M-14/Mini-14 ergonomics are, with the exception of lacking a pistol grip, very similar to the AK series. Is this correct?
 
Pop said:
Kind of OT...

I've had very limited exposure to AKs but from what I understand the M-14/Mini-14 ergonomics are, with the exception of lacking a pistol grip, very similar to the AK series. Is this correct?
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I suppose you could say that. You could also say that the Mini-14/M-14/M1 have open actions, while the AK's is enclosed. The AK also does not lock back on an empty magazine.

These two things alone change ergonomics quite a bit.
 
Pop said:
Kind of OT...

I've had very limited exposure to AKs but from what I understand the M-14/Mini-14 ergonomics are, with the exception of lacking a pistol grip, very similar to the AK series. Is this correct?
Click to expand...

Not at all, AKs were invented before ergonomics but the inventor had extensive combat experience which shows right away in the rifle:
  • good simple sights
  • pistol grip
  • short barrel
  • indestructible magazine
  • large, well located safety
  • magazine latch is foolproof

The M1 Garand was designed by a mechanical genius but he did not spend years fighting the Germans in modern infantry battles:
  • conventional stock
  • precision sight
  • long barrel
  • strange safety
  • open bolt mechanism

The first true modern assault rifle and original black rifle is the AR15.
The AR15's ergonomic is almost perfect which is why it's still in service almost 50 years later.
Everything is almost perfectly thought out and newer AR15 variants (HK 416) basically make it an almost perfect infantry rifle.

Alex
 
Put a muzzle braake on a Mini 14 and watch the increase in accuracy11
It is amazing and also works on the Mini 30

These are 1920 improved designs that have many applications today,whether someone believe they are black or tactical or whatever
 
AlexF said:
Not at all, AKs were invented before ergonomics but the inventor had extensive combat experience which shows right away in the rifle:
  • good simple sights
  • pistol grip
  • short barrel
  • indestructible magazine
  • large, well located safety
  • magazine latch is foolproof

The M1 Garand was designed by a mechanical genius but he did not spend years fighting the Germans in modern infantry battles:
  • conventional stock
  • precision sight
  • long barrel
  • strange safety
  • open bolt mechanism

The first true modern assault rifle and original black rifle is the AR15.
The AR15's ergonomic is almost perfect which is why it's still in service almost 50 years later.
Everything is almost perfectly thought out and newer AR15 variants (HK 416) basically make it an almost perfect infantry rifle.

Alex
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I can honestly say I have never heard anyone describe the AK safety as "well located" before.

Usually it's a considered a non-user serviceable component. I believe it is switched on and off at the unit level?
 
AlexF said:
Not at all, AKs were invented before ergonomics but the inventor had extensive combat experience which shows right away in the rifle:
  • good simple sights
  • pistol grip
  • short barrel
  • indestructible magazine
  • large, well located safety
  • magazine latch is foolproof

The M1 Garand was designed by a mechanical genius but he did not spend years fighting the Germans in modern infantry battles:
  • conventional stock
  • precision sight
  • long barrel
  • strange safety
  • open bolt mechanism

The first true modern assault rifle and original black rifle is the AR15.
The AR15's ergonomic is almost perfect which is why it's still in service almost 50 years later.
Everything is almost perfectly thought out and newer AR15 variants (HK 416) basically make it an almost perfect infantry rifle.

Alex
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Here's what I mean when I talk about them being similar:

- Safety is operated by the firing hand
- Magazine catch operated by the support hand
- Reciprocating bolt/op-rod handle located on the right hand side
- Magazines that are tilt-locked into place
- Magazines that don't drop free on release

To me the fundamental ergonomic differences between them (in default form) seem to be the pistol grip, bolt lock-back on empty and (obviously) general weight and balance. I'm just wondering what I'm missing that causes the Mini-14's ergonomics to be so commonly derided when the AK platform is given a passing grade.

Edit: just wanted to add again that this is based on only limited direct experience with the AK platform, which is why I'm asking. I'm not taking a stance that they have the same ergonomics, I'm trying to figure out what makes them fundamentally different.
 
Ot

c0ntract said:
The OP's question was regarding why do some people not consider it a black rifle... your post is focused on what I am assuming is SHTF scenario based on the 12 ga/ 22 and availability if times get rough. Regardless I think a lot of your points are a bit OT.

Regardless you can't dismiss the experts opinions as the topic has come to a discussion regarding the definition of a black rifle. IMO a black rifle is a post WWII military style firearm. Whether or not the rifle is restricted is irrelevant, the Tavor is NR, and it is a 21st century assault rifle issued and in use in a combat environment, (and it is also black) so it is undeniably a black rifle. The AR15,Tar, ACR, XCR, Sig rifles and etc are also black rifles. They are all military in origin, chambered to shoot NATO rounds and they meet all the other criteria. If black rifle is simply colored black... then the topic doesn't make sense. The term "black rifle" is used all the time in US magazines, they indicate that there are qualities to a black rifle, the biggest one tends to refer to military linage and looks. So IMHO for a gun to be considered a black rifle, it must be able to survive in a combat environment and also must be able to fire at least 1000 rounds (min) between cleanings with no failures. It should also be easy to field strip and come standard with high cap magazines.

Thats just my opinion. From the sounds of some members in here, a 1022 in a Krinker Plinker outfit would qualify as a black rifle :D
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Yeah....'spose I am guilty of straying a lil' off tangent.....
I must admit I perceived some of the Expert input as gun snobbery which is a pet peeve.

I think the whole black gun moniker and or definition is waaayy over the top. There are plenty of firearms out there that are solid, well engineered quality devices that when wielded by capable practiced operators transcend their lack of "blackness" ....

To get back on point and respond to the OP's query.......
No, the Mini 14 is called a Ranch rifle for a reason. She's a utility rifle built with utility use in mind.
Was never intended to be a "black" gun.
It is what it is and it ain't what it aint.
 
AlexF said:
Ruger Mini-14 is a 223 Rem 1970s respin of the 1950s respin of the 1930s M1 Garand.
It's anything but modern in design and ergonomics of the rifle is terrible.
Unfortunately, the Mini-14 never inherited M1 Garand's accuracy, reliability or durability.

I personaly owned many Mini-14s, most of which we resold within months of their buy.
(the ergonomics of the rifle are horrendeous for a 6'2" shooter).
I might be suckered into buying another one because of its low price, non-restricted status and improved accuracy :(

It's a great utility rifle but not much else.

Alex
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If you bought a gun and sold it within months of buying it, why would you buy another, and then another, and then another, and then another (I'm not sure how many is "many")
Horrendous ergos for you etc.. you got me scoopied here Alex, must say
 
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And you know this because you did a survey of thousands of gun owners followed up by a detailed needs analysis, right? It's all fine and well that you don't want one or it doesn't meet your needs. It is pretty arrogant to suggest those whose needs it does meet are simply uneducated or ignorant. How about just saying, "this is a firearm which meets some people's needs quite well"?

Let me guess: if I don't buy a Knight's Armament product, I'm not making an educated firearms purchase, right?

I bought my Mini because it meets the criteria I set out: the ability to make a headshot at 100y, utter reliability, readily available parts, a price less than $800. I don't need suppressers or night vision. As for the "it'll fall apart" argument: I can buy three Minis for the price of a Knight's Armament rifle. My Mini will also run with all kinds of sand, grit, etc. in the action. Will ANY AR be reliable under those circumstances? Nope. As for accuracy, most LE engagements are <100 yards. If I need long range targeting, I'm pulling out my Remington 700 in .308 with my 6.5-20x50, not a 223 semi auto with irons.

If Knight's can make something that meets all of those criteria, then you can discuss how poorly educated the buying public is. Until then, save your condescension. If I was going to spend $2500+ on a rifle, it would be on a Tavor.

KevinB said:
Many folks buy them and are happy. The main reason for that is that they do not shoot that much, and they don't have a accuracy requirement.

The grand scheme of life is that the vast majority of gun buyers are poorly educated, and do not know enough to make an educated firearms purchase.
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KevinB said:
Reading is fundamental. I explained why I had no use for the Mini-14, and the different reasons as to why folks tended to accept them, or not accept them.

I shoot about 15-25k 7.62mm a year, and about 20-30k 5.56mm, the Mini-14 does work for what I want, 1) It will fall apart due to firing schedule 2) It cannot be suppressed, cannot mount in line NV etc. 3) is not accurate enough for what I am doing. 4) has the woeful ergonomics of the M1/M14.

Honestly if you shoot less than 2K rounds a year, then this rifle may be great for you. But it does not meet my requirements, nor many many many others.
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AlexF said:
The first true modern assault rifle and original black rifle is the AR15.
The AR15's ergonomic is almost perfect which is why it's still in service almost 50 years later.
Everything is almost perfectly thought out and newer AR15 variants (HK 416) basically make it an almost perfect infantry rifle.
Click to expand...

While I agree with you that the ergonomics are excellent, the Tavor and similar bullpups are also ergonomically excellent and yet COMPLETELY different than the AR. Good ergonomics is good ergonomics.
 
carsmovies said:
Everything I've read and heard from a gunsmith suggests the mini 14 is very reliable.
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So your no-first hand experience is that they are reliable. Why even bother posting if you have never owned one. I had three stoppages in 400 rounds with my thats not "very reliable" in my book. And zero in 2-3000 in my Swiss arms.
 
winnipegger said:
So your no-first hand experience is that they are reliable. Why even bother posting if you have never owned one. I had three stoppages in 400 rounds with my thats not "very reliable" in my book. And zero in 2-3000 in my Swiss arms.
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I actually did own one about 30 years ago. And how much did you pay for your Swiss Arms Tactical WEAPON? I certainly trust the word and advice of my gunsmith with over 40 years experience than a wannabe tactical weapons expert. Also just cause I've never owned a Lexus doesn't mean that what the majority of people write saying that it's reliable doesn't make it not so.
 
I paid just under 3k for my Swiss rOughly 3x what I paid for mini and it's easily 3x the rifle.
So I'd say it was a bargain.
 
Anyhow all this argumenting is bs! My mini is black, accurate, as a long rail for mall ninja sh** ,good ergos, front heavy and unreliyable. It is what it is. So only firearms from knigh and a hand full of others Manufacturers are black and green cause others dont have military contract .
 
carsmovies said:
I actually did own one about 30 years ago. And how much did you pay for your Swiss Arms Tactical WEAPON? I certainly trust the word and advice of my gunsmith with over 40 years experience than a wannabe tactical weapons expert. Also just cause I've never owned a Lexus doesn't mean that what the majority of people write saying that it's reliable doesn't make it not so.
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also what was my swiss arms rifle designed from the beginning as? bayo lug tritium sights, cold weather trigger guard, folding stock and 30 rd mags that you can attach together. cmon man dont be such an old ass fudd....
 
carsmovies said:
And you're obviously young immature and with more money than brains.
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Young but not immature nor do I have lots of money, I spent every cent I made from a month long tasking I did on my Swiss arms but thanks for the insults. I'm done arguing with an old sour cheap fella like yourself.
 
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