270 winchester vs 30-06 springfield

[Home3]

I know we are not on the subject, but what the hell, it is almost the new year's eve...

A few years back, I had a five minute stand off with a Black bear while I was hiking the Bruce Trail between Tobermory and Cyprus Lake. A very humbling experience, to say the least.

Conspicuously, haven't had any nightmares but to say I was spooked is an understatement. To this day, when I read the so called "bear defense" threads and then I see some overly manly man guy tease them, I know for fact that these guys have never been in a close encounter situation with a bear. Can't imagine how would it have ended if it was a grizzly.

 

[Cleftwynd]

Working as a mining exploration contractor, and as a prospector, then later in the oilfield, I have had several black bear charges, bluffs, stalks, and sometimes just curious visits. They can be quite unpredictable, but none of them ever shook me up as much as a big grizz staring you down when close enough to take three steps and its on you. Used to bring the dog with me a lot, when I had a good dog anyway, because they can give you a lot of warning.


Anywhoo, sorry for the derail....

 

[westcoaster]

A full magazine emptied from a 338 into a sow grizzly did not save two poor souls along the Sikanni Chief river while elk hunting many years back. I would prefer 375 or bigger myself. His hunting partner was carrying a 30-06, they started shooting from a fair distance away and she still got them both. The empty brass are nailed into a tree with a plaque as a memorial.

I was stalked for over half a mile once in 1998 not too far from Christina Falls, BC. I was carrying a 308 M77 MkII and felt like I was holding a Red Ryder BB Gun when the biggest bear I have ever seen followed me back to my partner. He was as close as 25 yards at times, but as time went by I kept losing sight of him. He must have lost interest after a while, but it was the most nerve wracking afternoon I have ever spent in the bush.

I hunt this area and this brings back some memories...

Which grizzly attack/mauling are you referring to, I know of two bad ones although there are probably more. One involved guys from Williams Lake the other was with guys from the island?

 

[CZ_Brno]

http://www.angelfire.com/on2/LandOwner/misc/Grizley1.html

“Grizzly Guns” by H. V. Stent

If you are planning a grizzly hunt or only dreaming of one, a big question is which rifle to use.

On that fascinating subject, I’ve been amassing information for some 40 years of living as a teacher, fruit grower and hunter in that bear paradise, British Columbia, where stories of encounters with grizzlies and brown bears are enjoyed where ever sportsmen gather and are often headlined in newspapers and television newscasts.

Such meetings sometimes result in a mauled man or shot bear, or both. A recent one ended with both man and bear dead.

Rolf Voss of Surrey, British Columbia, had shot a caribou near Fort Nelson, in the north-central part of the province, and was carrying parts of the carcass back to his camp in wooded mountain country when a grizzly, perhaps smelling the meat, attacked him. Voss got off two shots with his .270 that proved fatal to the bear, but the grizzly bit Voss about the head – they usually go for the head – and killed him. The two bodies were found side by side.

This is no reflection on the .270. That cartridge has killed many grizzlies and browns. In 1985, a fine 27-incher (total skull measurement) fell to a .270 in the hands of Roger Pentecost of Peachland, BC. In 1986, another record-class grizzly was killed by Alvars Barkis of Sinking Spring, Pennsylvania, with a .300 Magnum; and a medium-size one, about 500 pounds, was killed by 12-year-old Gary H. Holmes of Kimberly, BC, with a .25/06. Back in 1965, the world-record grizzly fell to one .30/30 bullet fired by Jack Turner. And before that, the world-record grizzly succumbed to a .22 Rimfire!

Bella Twin, an Indian girl, and her friend Dave Auger were hunting grouse near Lesser Slave Lake in northern Alberta. The only gun they had was Bella’s single-shot bolt-action .22 Rimfire rifle. They were walking a cutline that had been made for oil exploration when they saw a large grizzly following the same survey line toward them. If they ran, the bear would probably notice them and might chase, so they quietly sat down on a brush pile and hoped that the bear would pass by without trouble. But the bear came much too close, and when the big boar was only a few yards away, Bella Twin shot him in the side of the head with a .22 Long cartridge. The bear dropped, kicked and then lay still. Taking no chances, Bella went up close and fired all of the cartridges she had, seven or eight .22 Longs, into the bear’s head. That bear, killed in 1953, was the world-record grizzly for several years and is still high in the records today. Which only goes to show that in an emergency, strange things are possible, but who wants that kind of emergency?

 

[Cleftwynd]

Westcoaster, I believe it was the fellas from Williams, I honestly don't remember their names sadly, but the image of that plaque and casings in the tree is burned in my memory.

I also worked with a young fella that while elk hunting with his father were attacked by a sow and two cubs, they were packing up their meat in the boxes when they got jumped. They lived thanks to Jay being left for dead, and he made it to his rifle. He emptied the lever into the sow killing her over the hide and bone pile, the cubs ran off. They had a guardian angel that trip..... Some of you might remember the headlines that were all over most of Canada when that happened.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

A somewhat similar incident or circumstance with a historical twist and from an area a little north of Williams Lake. This happened in the Bowron Lake area and as close as I can tell from mention of the incident, by the account of it in a book by my older cousin, took place in the late 20's. A Mr. Frank Kibbee, who later became a game warden in that area, was attacked and badly mauled by a Grizzly. Supposedly because of the severe damage to his face, after the encounter he always had a beard. As luck would have it, what saved his life is he emptied the contents of a single action Colt 45 he was packing into the Bear while it was on him.

 

[CZ_Brno]

Supposedly because of the severe damage to his face, after the encounter he always had a beard.

Reminds me of Robert McGee who was left for dead after being shot, stabbed, scalped, and usually wore a hat because of it.

That was from this book that has a lot of various historical Wildlife and Indian encounters in it.

 

[CZ_Brno]

I'll bet a lot of animals have killed people because you can't get permission to take a handgun with you into the wilderness for extra protection.

 

[rral22]

I'll bet a lot of animals have killed people because you can't get permission to take a handgun with you into the wilderness for extra protection.

I doubt it. Really. You are that frightened whenever you leave your vehicle?

First of all, a lot of people don't get killed in the wilderness from big bad bears. It's very rare. The fear some posters indicate here is way out of proportion to any actual danger presented. There are SOME places where the danger is greater than others, but the truth is the vast majority of wilderness is not going to produce ravenous bears, wolves, Sasquatches, or cougars intent on killing the nearest humans they can find. Just way too much TV and fairy tales.

Second, if you don't get it stopped with a rifle, it's very unlikely a handgun will save you. Guns are just not that good at defense from bears. Pepper spray has been shown by every study ever done to be more effective at stopping attacks than is the presence of any type of gun. Do some research.

Pay attention to Boomer's post about shot placement. Anything in the .30-06 category will stop a charge if you hit what you must hit if you want to STOP the animal. You can't just blast away with your .458 WM and expect a stop. Even that round must hit something that will cease hostilities right now, or it too will "not be enough".

Reality, folks; reality.

 

[CZ_Brno]

Reality...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_attacks_on_humans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Here's another 'flash from the past'. This apparently took place in area, west of Quesnel. An elderly native gentleman was in the process of guiding a well armed group from the land of milk & honey down south. In a discussion, the group was quite 'amazed' that all their guide used was a 30-30. His tactic as related to the group, was to 'anchour' the Grizzly by shooting it through the hips, then get up closer and kill it. While I have nothing to confirm the tale, it was related to me from very reliable sources.
Still have a couple more historical, 'flashes from the past' but I'll hang on to them for the present.

 

[rral22]

Reality...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_attacks_on_humans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America

Yes, Reality.

Did you actually count how many times a bear attack happens in a decade? How about in a century? Notice that the wolf attacks list covers CENTURIES and the whole world? On one web page??

Yes, Reality. Read those pages carefully, and you will find out your fear is way out of proportion. The chance of being killed on the drive to your "adventure of fear" in the wilderness is hundreds of times more likely. We do not need the right to carry hand guns while hunting in order to protect us from the big bad bear, or wolf, or cougar. You need to get a grip. Likely, you also need to spend some time in real wilderness so you can actually see it's not nearly as dangerous as your imagination makes it seem.

 

[Cleftwynd]

Back on track folks.... I am as guilty as anyone for this. Lets get back on topic for the OP.

 

[CZ_Brno]

Likely, you also need to spend some time in real wilderness so you can actually see it's not nearly as dangerous as your imagination makes it seem.

I've spent my whole f***ing life in real wilderness so quit acting like an a** toward me and please stop being a troll. The main problems I've had is idiots that throw their garbage along the lake shore bringing in nuisance predators. I've spend many hundreds of hours in the bush quite comfortably without a gun and know wildlife better then you ever will.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Back on track folks.... I am as guilty as anyone for this. Lets get back on topic for the OP.

And me. It's only recently that I've owned anything in .270WIN, a deficiency I've corrected,twice.

At present and without any reservation, for my choice the only defining criteria, the flavour of that particular day when I open the gun safe.

 

[Cleftwynd]

When people like Johnn post pictures of their rifles, it reminds me that when I am trying to choose between two calibers, it's always the pretty one that catches my eye that makes the decision for me.

I still say buy the first one you see that you fall in love with.

 

[elker]

I've spent my whole f***ing life in real wilderness so quit acting like an a** toward me and please stop being a troll. The main problems I've had is idiots that throw their garbage along the lake shore bringing in nuisance predators. I've spend many hundreds of hours in the bush quite comfortably without a gun and know wildlife better then you ever will.

I always immediately drop my respect for anyone who promote bear spray over a powerful rifle.

 

[Cleftwynd]

Bear spray used to be nasty stuff, I had to register all mine. I have dropped to black bears with it, second one was slightly upwind, even though I didn't see any drift my way, I thought my eyes were done for. I still have some here that was 15% which they don't make anymore.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Bear spray used to be nasty stuff, I had to register all mine. I have dropped to black bears with it, second one was slightly upwind, even though I didn't see any drift my way, I thought my eyes were done for. I still have some here that was 15% which they don't make anymore.

I thought 'Bear Spray' was defined as being nervous while holding a semi-auto. I couldn't resist, the Devil made me do it.

 

[Gatehouse]

"One of the hot-stove-league arguments now going on is whether the .30/06 or the .270 is the better big game cartridge. I have hunted for years with both calibers. Right now I have three .30-06's and three .270's. And that, I believe, shows how I feel.

As I see it, the 200-foot-seconds greater velocity of the 130-gr. .270 factory load gives it a slight edge over the 150-gr. .30/06 on lighter animals like deer, antelope and sheep. This .270 load also has a somewhat longer point-blank range, 275 yd. or thereabouts when the rifle is sighted in to put the bullet 4 in high at 200 . The point-blank range would be 250 yd. in the .30/06. A somewhat higher impact velocity at the longer ranges gives the .270, I believe, a higher percentage of instant kills than the .30/06. Flatter trajectory plus slightly less punishing recoil means that many hunters can do more accurate shooting with the .270.

On the other hand, the .30/06's heavier bullets make it a little superior on the larger animals. So while it's my belief that the .270 has the edge on lighter game, I'd give the .30/06 the nod on heavier animals. I doubt that anything that can be put through a .270 would be quite as effective on the heavier stuff as a good 180 grain bullet in the .30/06. And when a man is hunting really heavy and potentially dangerous game I don't think any .270 load is as effective as a good 220 gr. bullet in the .30/06, as these babies play for keeps and the bullet must drive into the vitals at all costs! Friends of mine who have hunted in Africa with the .270 and .30-06 say the latter's 220 gr. bullet is far more effective on big game than the .270 with any load."​

-Jack O'Connor, 'Jack O'Connor's Gun Book', 1953, reprinted 1992

I've read a few similar comments by O'Connor, including how he felt the 30-06 was a better moose gun than the 270, as the 270 took a number of shots to finish off moose. Jack loved the flat shooting capabilities of a .270 for deer and sheep, but with the bullets of the day, the 30-06 was better for big stuff.

Nowadays, the premium bullet selection is outstanding, nd apart from very specialized situations like a grizzly charging you (where I would prefer a 220gr Partition or 180gr TSX over a 140gr .270 anything) then the difference between the 2 cartridges is pretty much nothing. That being said, if I was hunting sheep with a 270/280/7-08 with 140gr TSX bullets and a grizzly charged me, I would be more than happy to kill the bear with the combo.

270 shooting 130/140gr TSX bullets will go through both shoulders of elk and moose and so will a 30-06 with 150-180gr TSX bullets, so what's the difference?