Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
No... In order to keyhole as shown, the bullet would have to be tumbling before it hit the target.
Elongated holes at close range. Why???
- Thread starter Steve Janes
- Start date
No... In order to keyhole as shown, the bullet would have to be tumbling before it hit the target.
Steve Janes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary/Ontario
That was my theory if it was anything other than ammo which was what I originally thought must have caused it anyway, as I already stated.
At that time I was really just guessing, as I had no idea. I have learned a lot about stabilization today. I had no idea it took up to 50m for 5.56 to stabilize, as someone stated.
From the advice I have gotten here, I agree and I'm thinking two rounds were messed right up, and the results showed.
Pretty sure with how the rifle behaved over the next two days (300 rounds), it was just some bad Norc ammo, but still weird.
Any idea what kind of "ammo issue" could cause a bullet to yaw this dramatically before impact?
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I could see that not stabilizing thing being accurate, because I tend to shoot much more accurately with my .308 at long range than I do at 100m oddly enough... however, I cannot see .223 being completely sideways through the paper.
I think what is happening is since you have your target lying in the dirt, you got a ricochet. My 2c
I think what is happening is since you have your target lying in the dirt, you got a ricochet. My 2c
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Looks like the the paper ripped in a cool bullet look sort of way when you started ripping off your stickers.
Other than that I will not believe a bullet would do that at such a close range unless you had some sort of debris in your flash hider.(even then..???)
Looks like you need to do some more testing with that ammo, and don't cover up that amazing phenomenon next time with a sticker.
Other than that I will not believe a bullet would do that at such a close range unless you had some sort of debris in your flash hider.(even then..???)
Looks like you need to do some more testing with that ammo, and don't cover up that amazing phenomenon next time with a sticker.
Steve Janes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary/Ontario
I've shot just over 2200 rounds of this same norc ammo since the beginning of November, this is the first time I've noticed anything weird, and because it's Norc, I expected a problem much sooner. Just didn't expect this.
If you can take my word for it, it looked that way before I taped it too
I started the thread because I remembered some weird hole's, someone asked for a pic, and I was going to say "maybe I exaggerated and they weren't that bad" but then I went to the car to see if I could find the target. Only then did I remove the tape and see that the holes looked exactly as I remembered.Debris in the flash hider is also a possibility, if I remember correctly I had my muzzle come into contact with the ground once or twice during drills, and it was raining pretty good that day and having things wet might have helped the debris stick. I do crawl around a lot, and have a tendency of getting both myself and my rifle dirty
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Kevin B beat me to the suggestion that the bullet is hitting the flash hider... that's worth checking.
I have one other anecdotal experience that relates to this though: I once loaded a smallish batch of ammo and had my Lee Factory Crimp Die set WAY too deep. So deep in fact that it was deforming the bullets; basically squeezing a waist into them at the crimp, causing a bulge near the ogive and an all 'round buggered up profile.
That batch of ammo wouldn't shoot worth a
in the rifle, which was otherwise more than satisfactory with that load normally. I did experience a couple of keyholed shots, which is what made me look at the ammo very closely.
My only point in relating that is to say that bad ammo can cause all kind of unpredictable results.
I have one other anecdotal experience that relates to this though: I once loaded a smallish batch of ammo and had my Lee Factory Crimp Die set WAY too deep. So deep in fact that it was deforming the bullets; basically squeezing a waist into them at the crimp, causing a bulge near the ogive and an all 'round buggered up profile.
That batch of ammo wouldn't shoot worth a
in the rifle, which was otherwise more than satisfactory with that load normally. I did experience a couple of keyholed shots, which is what made me look at the ammo very closely.My only point in relating that is to say that bad ammo can cause all kind of unpredictable results.
Could those rounds be coming apart while being accelerated down the barrel? If there was a significant defect during the manufacturing process in those rounds they may not have held together and a piece may have separated causing them to spin to that degree upon exiting the barrel. Even a small piece of jacket missing might destabilize the projectile significantly.
The flash hider on an SA is rather large compared to the bore and is machined out of the barrel so I see it as unlikely that a bullet would even be able to hit it unless it were noticeably bent.
The flash hider on an SA is rather large compared to the bore and is machined out of the barrel so I see it as unlikely that a bullet would even be able to hit it unless it were noticeably bent.
Steve Janes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary/Ontario
Agreed, the flash hider is very large when compared to a .223 round, and there was no indication of a round touching the flash hider either.
Steve Janes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary/Ontario
Yes, lots, it was a logging spur cut laterally across a hillside, I am shooting up the hill into the wall of dirt beside the logging spur, I don't think the rounds came back through, when I pull them out of the hill side after there pretty mangled, any rounds the hit rock at this range would be shredded and I doubt they would leave such a clean hole, but anythings possible.
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- Location
- lower mainland
You certainly have the strangest things happen . i have had some good results with 308 norinco ammo but not consistent results ( if that makes sense) quality control with most things made in china is as we all know is hit or miss
Just love the comment
I've seen this happen before with
ammo and shoot out gun.... But i have fired 5.56 at every possible range betweeb 1-100 meters and nevers seen this... (except with
ammo and gun)I don't see a bullet hitting the target that angled ever getting back on track, just accuracy wise, if its not pointing where it got fired, might be a problem here....
Steve Janes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary/Ontario
Plz, no more effort needed. You answered my question, anything further is just pointless speculation. Thanks for your help earlier, and everyone else who offered suggestions.
Steve
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Steve Janes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary/Ontario
Hate to revive an old thread like this, but while on an Advanced Carbine Course from Phase Line Green Tactical this past weekend, at least one other shooter experienced elongated holes while shooting the Norinco Yellow Box, he was shooting an AR but I don' know what twist it was, the target had at least 5 out of 20 that were entering the paper completely sideways, I wish I had taken a picture but several others were there and witnessed it as well.
I actually had some more elongated holes myself, and when I switched to American Eagle they stopped right away.
As suspected, this confirms 100% for me that it was completely an ammo related issue.
There were also a couple guys who had just a couple light primer strikes on the Norc ammo, but this was not persistent like the elongated holes were, the QC on the ammo just sux, undersized projectiles every 10-15 rounds or more in some cases.
I actually had some more elongated holes myself, and when I switched to American Eagle they stopped right away.
As suspected, this confirms 100% for me that it was completely an ammo related issue.
There were also a couple guys who had just a couple light primer strikes on the Norc ammo, but this was not persistent like the elongated holes were, the QC on the ammo just sux, undersized projectiles every 10-15 rounds or more in some cases.
Negative
LONGER Bullets require faster twists, and thin jacket bullets require slower twists.
As well as the depth, width and sharpness of the groove has a lot to do with it.
