Elongated holes at close range. Why???

[Steve Janes]

lol,holycrap! Put a new target up now and again. What kind of back stop? very strange.

What can I say, I'm cheap!

Dirt back stop, Target was literally leaning up against the dirt...........wall of dirt was mere inches away from rear of target

It's almost as if the bullet is not compatible to the barrel twist rate?

Again, a possibility, but then why would they group consistently at range??

 

[Master-G]

They are definitely hitting the target at range, 10 for 10 inside a fist sized group at 150m yesterday, after sprinting that same 150m. I did this at about 4 times, taping the target after each run, every round was accounted for.

My theory is the downward angle, combined with lack of stabilization at 2-3m, is cause this "wobble" to make the odd round tumble hard on impact.

I'm stumped. The angle shouldn't matter...and the holes look too pristine to be ricochets coming back at you (which you'd probably notice anyway!). I'm wondering if there was a bad lot maybe in the ammo you had? Some was good and some was bad? As mmattockx mentions upthread, once rounds start tumbling they'll never restabilize so I don't think that it.

 

[Steve Janes]

I'm stumped. The angle shouldn't matter...and the holes look too pristine to be ricochets coming back at you (which you'd probably notice anyway!). I'm wondering if there was a bad lot maybe in the ammo you had? Some was good and some was bad? As mmattockx mentions upthread, once rounds start tumbling they'll never restabilize so I don't think that it.

The only answer I can figure is the rounds are tumbling on impact, due to lack of stabilization at close range.

As I stand here in front of my target, it was more like 2m. I have some boxes drawn on the target and was doing v-tac triple threat drills.

 

[Brutus]

What can I say, I'm cheap!

Dirt back stop, Target was literally leaning up against the dirt...........wall of dirt was mere inches away from rear of target



Again, a possibility, but then why would they group consistently at range??

Friend, I would have to literally see that to believe that the tumbling rounds actually stabilize themselves and somehow perfrom better at longer range.
And I'm not calling you on that, but I believe this would have to be proven under strict and controlled conditions.
At the very least, you firing in the best of conditions with several persons spotting your shots at longer and varying distances with a clear view of your target/backstop and good optics. And accounting for every single shot. I'm still leaning towards poor ammo. Perhaps varying bullet jacket thicknesses??

maybe.............

 

[Steve Janes]

Friend, I would have to literally see that to believe that the tumbling rounds actually stabilize themselves and somehow perfrom better at longer range.
And I'm not calling you on that, but I believe this would have to be proven under strict and controlled conditions.
At the very least, you firing in the best of conditions with several persons spotting your shots at longer and varying distances with a clear view of your target/backstop and good optics. And accounting for every single shot. I'm still leaning towards poor ammo. Perhaps varying bullet jacket thicknesses??

maybe.............

Dude, your not getting it.

I am not saying that a round already tumbling at 3m is hitting on target at longer range. That would be crazy.

I am saying that the rounds are not stabilized until they reach a certain un determined distance right?(I suspect about 15m) and as a result of this lack of stability, my theory is when shooting at distances of less than 3m the odd bullet is tumbling "ON IMPACT". If the round does not impact cardboard at 3m, then it will stabilize at further range and hit on target at distance, and has been consistently doing so.

Does that make more sense?

 

[jethunter]

This ^^^. If bullets are leaving true side profile holes there is no way they will ever stabilize and fly point forward farther downrange. I don't know what is happening with OP's projectiles, but it is not a case of the bullets going to sleep downrange but keyholing up close.


Mark

I've seen similar but not so dramatic yaw at close range in a few rifles, most noticeably a 22-250 that shot egg shaped holes at 25 yards and perfect .224 diameter circles at 100 yards and beyond. It happens and it's usually a problem with the crown. That was the root cause on the 22-250, the crown was slightly off-square with the bore.

EDIT: I just saw the pictures - i have to admit that I find it hard to grasp that a bullet can turn 90 degrees sideways 3 meters from the muzzle.

 

[beavis_m305]

Thanks for posting. This is so weird, those key hole impacts look so perfect. All of the key holes I've seen are just long tears in the target.

 

[Stevo]

The only guns I've ever had keyhole were a horribly shot out Ross and an ancient Marlin lever gun. I have seen keyholes show up in targets when shot through a plywood barricade 10 yds in front of the target.

Something is wrong for keyholes like that to show up at 2m without first passing through an obstacle.

 

[marsden]

Steve, I understand what you're trying to say but; it just does'nt make any sense. I'm far (very far) from an expert.. struggling how this could even happen.

How can it tumble that much and then straighten out? Anybody?

 

[Steve Janes]

Something is wrong for keyholes like that to show up at 2m without first passing through an obstacle.

And yet it's 2 rounds out of about 50-60 that did this, and the same ammo groups consistently at longer range.

EDIT: I just saw the pictures - i have to admit that I find it hard to grasp that a bullet can turn 90 degrees sideways 3 meters from the muzzle.

It happened man, twice! And that's why I keep saying it must be tumbling on impact, there is just no way it could be so flat only 3m from the muzzle

Unless Maybe my back stop was to close to the target, and I really did almost get shot???? LOL, but I doubt this was the case

There is no need to be crazy critical, nothing is broken, I've shot over 300 rounds since this happened, some at close range and some at longer range, nothing has shown any issues, ammo or otherwise since these two elongated holes at 2-3m

 

[Stevo]

Between practice, 3 gun, and classes I've seen 10's of thousand of rounds fired at ranges under 25m, from all types of rifles and all sorts of ammo. I've never seen a keyhole not caused by passing through a barricade.

I have seen particular examples on the net of 5.56 barrels used on 5.45 guns that produced the same result as your pictures.

I'd chalk your experience up to some undersize projectiles in those particular rounds.

 

[Steve Janes]

Between practice, 3 gun, and classes I've seen 10's of thousand of rounds fired at ranges under 25m, from all types of rifles and all sorts of ammo. I've never seen a keyhole not caused by passing through a barricade.

I have seen particular examples on the net of 5.56 barrels used on 5.45 guns that produced the same result as your pictures.

I'd chalk your experience up to some undersize projectiles in those particular rounds.

The theory in bold above makes a lot of sense to me also. Especially with the cheap Norinco ammo.

Regardless, do we agree this is not something to worry about unless it starts to repeat itself on a more regular basis and with other brands of ammunition.

 

[Stevo]

Regardless, not something to worry about unless it starts to repeat itself on a more regular basis and with other brands of ammunition, would we agree on this???

If it happens with other brands, you may need to look deeper into potential causes.

There's no safety concerns as far as operating your rifle goes, but there is the potential for some of your bullets to go off course a bit.

 

[Steve Janes]

If it happens with other brands, you may need to look deeper into potential causes.

There's no safety concerns as far as operating your rifle goes, but there is the potential for some of your bullets to go off course a bit.

Like I said before, 300 or so rounds on target since. Must have been ammo, like I originally thought, I just wondered if anyone had seen anything like it.

Sure would leave a vicious wound profile in some ballistic gell, a completely flat tumbling M193 round at full velocity from a 20.9" barrel. It's these characteristics that got NATO to switch from the M193 to the SS109.

 

[KevinB]

It is not upon impact.

The paper is how thick? Human tissue which is much more dense 55gr ammo has a 5-6" neck before the projectile starts to yaw -- please don't use tumble, rifled barrel projectiles don't tumble - they yaw.

The round is not stabilized properly. Its either due to impact with the Flash Hider (check from small bronze kisses), a poorly cut crown or other other debris at the muzzle, or more likely to me ammo QC issues.

While expanding muzzle gasses can sometime partially destabilize a bullet upon exiting the muzzle (which is what some folks refer to the bullet 'going to sleep' at distance when the rotation spin has overcome the disturbance) the bullet is not yawing that extreme for it could not recover. If a bullet is that unstable at the point (3-5M from the muzzle) it cannot recover from that.

My guess is based on your reports that this only happened two time at the close range is that you happened to come across two round with issues.

 

[Steve Janes]

It is not upon impact.

The paper is how thick? Human tissue which is much more dense 55gr ammo has a 5-6" neck before the projectile starts to yaw -- please don't use tumble, rifled barrel projectiles don't tumble - they yaw.

The round is not stabilized properly. Its either due to impact with the Flash Hider (check from small bronze kisses), a poorly cut crown or other other debris at the muzzle, or more likely to me ammo QC issues.

While expanding muzzle gasses can sometime partially destabilize a bullet upon exiting the muzzle (which is what some folks refer to the bullet 'going to sleep' at distance when the rotation spin has overcome the disturbance) the bullet is not yawing that extreme for it could not recover. If a bullet is that unstable at the point (3-5M from the muzzle) it cannot recover from that.

My guess is based on your reports that this only happened two time at the close range is that you happened to come across two round with issues.

Thank you, yours and others like yours are the opinions I was looking for.

Edit, I just checked and there are no marks on the flash hider that would indicate impact.

 

[jethunter]

And yet it's 2 rounds out of about 50-60 that did this, and the same ammo groups consistently at longer range.



It happened man, twice! And that's why I keep saying it must be tumbling on impact, there is just no way it could be so flat only 3m from the muzzle

Unless Maybe my back stop was to close to the target, and I really did almost get shot???? LOL, but I doubt this was the case

There is no need to be crazy critical, nothing is broken, I've shot over 300 rounds since this happened, some at close range and some at longer range, nothing has shown any issues, ammo or otherwise since these two elongated holes at 2-3m

I'm not questioning that it happened, just struggling to explain how it happened. Crazy

 

[*MALICE*]

Upon looking at those pictures, something crossed my mind.

While those holes look like a sideways bullet, is it possible that it's a very tight grouping and the small end is where the paper has ripped? When you look very closely at the pics it almost looks like they are multiple small holes in a very close line.

Now, if you fired a shot and then saw that hole, my theory is out the window

 

[Steve Janes]

Upon looking at those pictures, something crossed my mind.

While those holes look like a sideways bullet, is it possible that it's a very tight grouping and the small end is where the paper has ripped? When you look very closely at the pics it almost looks like they are multiple small holes in a very close line.

Now, if you fired a shot and then saw that hole, my theory is out the window

I did not notice them as they happened, I did the drill a bunch of times and them saw them after. Still, I don't think there multiple hits, I suppose it's possible, but I doubt it.

 

[JonVisscher]

Dude, your not getting it.

I am saying that the rounds are not stabilized until they reach a certain un determined distance right?(I suspect about 15m) and as a result of this lack of stability, my theory is when shooting at distances of less than 3m the odd bullet is tumbling "ON IMPACT". If the round does not impact cardboard at 3m, then it will stabilize at further range and hit on target at distance, and has been consistently doing so.
Does that make more sense?

So, your theory is that a bullet going 3000+ FPS is tumbling & turning approx. 90 degrees upon hitting a thin piece of cardboard?
(I may have to look at the laws of Physics once again)

Your cardboard is not made in China... thats for sure!