Advice requested: ONT charge - "Unlawfully possess another person's seal"

fenceline said:
Pick option 2. Plead NG. Get trial date. You can do option 3 then right up to the day of trial any time between now and then. Pleading NG will just give you time to get option 3 done. Or find someone to do it for you as agent.

You may also be able to waive the matter to Toronto court if you are doing option 3. Save you a trip.
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Yup, plead NG, get the court date, then plead Guilty with an Explanation. Gw/E means the MNR officer does not testify, so it is you and the justice. I have done this twice on parking tickets and the ticket was waived. At worst, you will pay a fine, but it won't be the full amount. I know you have to take time out of your day, but it is a great learning opportunity, and you do need to give your side.
 
Incorrect paperwork and licence fines are how the MNR makes its money. I'd suggest you talk to a lawyer. Most of 'em will give you a half hour for free and will tell you if you have a defence. Give the OFAH a call to get the name of one who has experience.
 
I didn't see this mentioned anywhere but in Ont. is there an AUTOMATIC LICENCE SUSPENSION upon conviction of an offence?

There is in Alberta and the officers do not normally tell you about that when they suggest you plead guilty.

I knew a fellow who accidentally shot a hen pheasant (i won't go into the details) and took a day off work and drove to another town to plead guilty and take his $50.00 fine. Then he found out he lost his hunting privileges for a year from the conviction date. That was a pretty hard pill to swallow.

In our system we have a judge who 1. decides guilt and 2. assesses an appropriate punishment. Automatic suspension of licence takes the punishment duties away from the judge.
 
Good point about the automatic suspension. Some charges upon conviction may result in that, others may not. Look into it, or even ask the crown. If the charge that was laid results in a suspension upon conviction, you may be able to plea to a lesser charge other than the one was laid that does not result in an automatic suspension on conviction.
 
sadly, its been the abuse many "so called hunters", have conducted by using others tags. Moose tags used to be bad for this as groups would be out hunting but the guy who got the tag didn't make the trip at all.

so it is a clearly defined regulation. The intent is to avoid people filling other peoples tags who aren't even hunting.

While your explanation seems honest and valid, it is hard to know the actual truth. And no offence, but forgetting you used your tag already probably didn't help them believe your story.

And I would also say, if a kid can't be trusted to keep safe his important paperwork, can they really be trusted to be hunting? Hunting is a privilege that comes with some responsibility. I'm sure he is more than capable, you just have to trust him with the responsibility. He probably will fully understand the importance now after seeing this happen.

all that being said, I'm sure you will get it reduced if you want to take the time. But time is money so you need to decide if its worth it.
I'd pay it and chalk it up to the learning experience it is. But sometimes the principle of the thing is worth more than the money it may cost you.

FishHog
 
Duffy said:
I didn't see this mentioned anywhere but in Ont. is there an AUTOMATIC LICENCE SUSPENSION upon conviction of an offence?
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In Ontario, cancellation of your license appears to be automatic only if the charge is related to careless use of a firearm. See section 104(1).
 
Bummer.

Not sure if it was pointed out yet but you mention that your license was not given back you you by the person who used your seal. It is an offence for anyone but you to use your seal whether you shot the deer or not. You must attach your seal regardless of who shot the animal. The COs will fine you for it if they find out.

Not judging you, just pointing it out so you know.
 
Sharkson said:
But I had forgotten that my seal was on a deer shot the previous day and hanging back in the hunt camp garage. The licence portion had not been returned to me by the fellow who attached the seal!!!
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Just pay the fine and make it a lesson learned. The above quote is another offence. The owner of the seal must attach it to the animal. No one else. That means your buddy had your seal (offence) and would also result in an "improperly tagged" deer (another offence). In which case you would have to surrender your deer and pay another hefty fine as well.

-Jason
 
sbound said:
I have a friend who had almost this exact thing happen but with duck hunting... he told the CO that he couldn't trust the 12 year old kid he was mentoring to not lose or misplace his license... charge laid anyway.

He took it to court and plead guilty with an explanation and the judge reduced the fine to $50 stating that although he was in the wrong, it seemed reasonable for a parent to be in charge of important paperwork etc. that would likely otherwise be misplaced.

In my experience, if you go to provincial offenses court, present yourself well, and make your point, it is highly likely that the fine will be reduced significantly.
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I am not a hunter, and this situation makes me very curious and please my ignorance on this topic. Quite frankly, sounds like the gov't and the MNR are idiots for fining a parent for safekeeping a child's paperwork.

Let me present this situation:

So, understanding that doing the correct, most sensible and most logical thing, will get me a fine for holding onto my young child's paperwork, I let my 12 year old carry the paperwork. So my 12 year old loses said papers, seals, tags etc, despite the almighty gov't's wisdom. What are they going to do? Fine a 12 year old? How will they collect? Can they even collect off of a child? Is that even legally allowed?

Situations like this make me sad and fear for our future.
 
pack was in the truck you all arrived in when the CO pulled up correct? how can they charge you with possesion if you are all using that vehicle to hunt from and the pack was inside it with everyones info inside? something to bring up if you decide to dispute the matter.
 
Brian46 said:
pack was in the truck you all arrived in when the CO pulled up correct? how can they charge you with possesion if you are all using that vehicle to hunt from and the pack was inside it with everyones info inside? something to bring up if you decide to dispute the matter.
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My stepson was with another group in another location (still party hunting though). The CO's saw me take off my pack and put it in my vehicle. So, he wasn't there which wouldn't allow me to use your argument. Thanks though!


Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.
 
Light Infantry said:
I am not a hunter, and this situation makes me very curious and please my ignorance on this topic. Quite frankly, sounds like the gov't and the MNR are idiots for fining a parent for safekeeping a child's paperwork.

Let me present this situation:

So, understanding that doing the correct, most sensible and most logical thing, will get me a fine for holding onto my young child's paperwork, I let my 12 year old carry the paperwork. So my 12 year old loses said papers, seals, tags etc, despite the almighty gov't's wisdom. What are they going to do? Fine a 12 year old? How will they collect? Can they even collect off of a child? Is that even legally allowed?

Situations like this make me sad and fear for our future.
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They'd probably fine the parent/mentor. In my previous post, I mentioned someone I know who was fined while out mentoring his 12 year old daughter. She had the gun and was actively hunting, but, he was carrying her hunter apprentice card while walking alongside her.
 
Sharkson said:
My stepson was with another group in another location (still party hunting though). The CO's saw me take off my pack and put it in my vehicle. So, he wasn't there which wouldn't allow me to use your argument. Thanks though!


Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.
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you could have simply been moving the pack from one part of the truck to another (depends on how long they were watching you) Is it a crime to leave your deer tag in the truck if you are party hunting with someone else under their tag? (we dont have "party" hunting here in BC and our deer tags are in our/part of our hunting license that does not get removed and put on the animal so I wouldn't know the rules)
 
Sharkson said:
I was party hunting deer near Parry Sound very recently. It was the last afternoon of my hunt before we headed home. I was with a group of 10 including my late '20's stepson and my 13 year old son who is a new Hunter Apprentice.

Near dusk, I made my way back to my vehicle parked on a side road. My 13 year old had been in the car for about 45 min because he was cold. I unloaded and made my rifle safe, opened the rear liftgate and put the rifle in with my pack. At that moment, an MNR pickup with two officers drove up. The "good cop" approached me in a friendly manner and asked me to show that the rifle was unloaded and to produce my deer licence. That's when my problems started.

I opened my pack, pulled out my waterproof pouch containing my Outdoors Card, PAL, my 13 year old's Outdoors Apprentice Card, and my stepson's deer licence/seal combo. But where was mine? I initially thought and said that I must have switched them, i.e. had given my stepson mine while I had his. But I had forgotten that my seal was on a deer shot the previous day and hanging back in the hunt camp garage. The licence portion had not been returned to me by the fellow who attached the seal!!!

I explained that I had been carrying all three licences/Outdoor Cards etc because my stepson has a habit of misplacing his stuff in our home since moving back in earlier this year. To be fair, he has not been allocated much space especially for his paperwork. I just was being a thoughtful and thorough dad making sure everything was together so the licences/seals would not be forgotten.

The MNR gentlemen went back to their truck and confirmed online that I indeed had been issued a proper licence and had no record of bad behaviour of any sort. But they still rewarded me with a $365 ticket for "Unlawfully possess another person's seal" under Fish & Wildlife Conservation Act 1997 Reg 665/98, Sec 19.

I have looked up the Act and indeed, it is a very short section saying that you cannot possess another person's seal. There is no interpretation that I have access to, to judge whether there is any precedent for fighting this ticket.

I have two choices beyond just paying up: guilty with an explanation, or not guilty and wishing a trial. I was clearly in violation of the strict reading of the regulation, but my stepson was hunting in the same party (no, they did not ask to speak with him). In a sense, I was holding the seal "in trust" for him. I had no intention of using it without him hunting with us. In fact, we came and left together to the hunt in the same vehicle.

It may be "legal" to penalize me, but certainly this doesn't feel like any sort of justice as I did nothing dangerous, unsafe or unethical.

Any helpful suggestions??
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Just curious if you argue this they might be able to charge you with hunting without a valid tag for you and your son ? I don't know how the ontario seals or apprentice program works but if you explain your self as you did in the opening post and your tag was on a deer in camp and your son had quit hunting 45 minutes before (guessing you were both hunting on his tag if eligible) you might get into more trouble without a more solid explanation.
 
Sharkson said:
I was party hunting deer near Parry Sound very recently. It was the last afternoon of my hunt before we headed home. I was with a group of 10 including my late '20's stepson and my 13 year old son who is a new Hunter Apprentice.

Near dusk, I made my way back to my vehicle parked on a side road. My 13 year old had been in the car for about 45 min because he was cold. I unloaded and made my rifle safe, opened the rear liftgate and put the rifle in with my pack. At that moment, an MNR pickup with two officers drove up. The "good cop" approached me in a friendly manner and asked me to show that the rifle was unloaded and to produce my deer licence. That's when my problems started.

I opened my pack, pulled out my waterproof pouch containing my Outdoors Card, PAL, my 13 year old's Outdoors Apprentice Card, and my stepson's deer licence/seal combo. But where was mine? I initially thought and said that I must have switched them, i.e. had given my stepson mine while I had his. But I had forgotten that my seal was on a deer shot the previous day and hanging back in the hunt camp garage. The licence portion had not been returned to me by the fellow who attached the seal!!!
I explained that I had been carrying all three licences/Outdoor Cards etc because my stepson has a habit of misplacing his stuff in our home since moving back in earlier this year. To be fair, he has not been allocated much space especially for his paperwork. I just was being a thoughtful and thorough dad making sure everything was together so the licences/seals would not be forgotten.

The MNR gentlemen went back to their truck and confirmed online that I indeed had been issued a proper licence and had no record of bad behaviour of any sort. But they still rewarded me with a $365 ticket for "Unlawfully possess another person's seal" under Fish & Wildlife Conservation Act 1997 Reg 665/98, Sec 19.

I have looked up the Act and indeed, it is a very short section saying that you cannot possess another person's seal. There is no interpretation that I have access to, to judge whether there is any precedent for fighting this ticket.

I have two choices beyond just paying up: guilty with an explanation, or not guilty and wishing a trial. I was clearly in violation of the strict reading of the regulation, but my stepson was hunting in the same party (no, they did not ask to speak with him). In a sense, I was holding the seal "in trust" for him. I had no intention of using it without him hunting with us. In fact, we came and left together to the hunt in the same vehicle.

It may be "legal" to penalize me, but certainly this doesn't feel like any sort of justice as I did nothing dangerous, unsafe or unethical.

Any helpful suggestions??
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Sounds like a couple of more serious violations:
1. Hunting deer with no license on person
2. Allowing someone else to put your game seal on a deer.
So what was that person doing with your game seal?
 
Sharkson said:
My stepson was with another group in another location (still party hunting though). The CO's saw me take off my pack and put it in my vehicle. So, he wasn't there which wouldn't allow me to use your argument. Thanks though!


Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.
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So your stepson was hunting without a license?

This might be a case where it is better to say less and just accept they have already given you a break on a few points.
 
Chuckbuster said:
They'd probably fine the parent/mentor. In my previous post, I mentioned someone I know who was fined while out mentoring his 12 year old daughter. She had the gun and was actively hunting, but, he was carrying her hunter apprentice card while walking alongside her.
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Unbelievable. Sounds like the MNR are pretty much morons quite honestly.
 
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