FBI replacing .40cal with 9mm?

[Slavex]

Oh good lord, 45 is no more a man stopper or magical than 9mm or 40. In fact pistol rounds blow as far as stopping people. Rifle rounds rule, which is why so many departments now have ARs in the cars.
I know a lot of Vietnam vets who hated the 45 and the 1911 calling the gun useless and the round inaccurate and underpowered. Ballistic performance of the current crop of defense rounds sees the 9mm having better penetration and the same sized wound cavity on expansion.

 

[Element115]

Oh good lord, 45 is no more a man stopper or magical than 9mm or 40. In fact pistol rounds blow as far as stopping people. Rifle rounds rule, which is why so many departments now have ARs in the cars.
I know a lot of Vietnam vets who hated the 45 and the 1911 calling the gun useless and the round inaccurate and underpowered. Ballistic performance of the current crop of defense rounds sees the 9mm having better penetration and the same sized wound cavity on expansion.

yup i agree, SBRs (short barrel rifles) are the best way. but if you have to conceal carry or have a secondary pistol 9mm, .40 or 45auto with good ammo perform very identical. take the one you shoot the best.

 

[skypilot]

Most of the FBI shootings are bad breath distance anyway. Which is why I find it odd that they have changed their training to 40 rds @ 3-7 yds IIRC, eliminating some 15-25 yd rounds, but yet going to a smaller caliber. Seems backwards. Train up close, but drop down in caliber.

Back in the late 80s, early 90s, seemed they were more concerned about under gunned and getting consistent penetration thru sheet metal and auto glass, thus the hyda shock. Which didn't seem too great on bad guys without prior barrier interference.

I just don't see a large amount of Depts. jumping back on the nine.

 

[Greenhorse six]

Pistol rounds suck, it's all about shot placement ,and todays modern 9mm rounds always expand as promised.......but bigger is always better to start with.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

 

[wayupnorth]

That's definitely not happening...even Texas DPS is walking away from .357Sig. Cool concept but it's on life support as a duty round.

Lot of research has been done over the last 10 years on terminal ballistics. 9mm is cheaper and does 99 and 44/100ths percent of what .40 does, plus some things it doesn't do, for cheaper.

I personally enjoy 10mm but it's long gone as anything but a cult round. .40 isn't turning into a cult round, but the reasons it was adopted by a lot of agencies a decade or two back are pretty much irrelevant now. Expect to see more big agencies going to 9mm.

if im not mistaken a lot of Euro use the 357sig as duty round.
i havnt tried it myself but but im interested in trying it.

 

[wayupnorth]

yup i agree, SBRs (short barrel rifles) are the best way. but if you have to conceal carry or have a secondary pistol 9mm, .40 or 45auto with good ammo perform very identical. take the one you shoot the best.

isnt there a saying for that?

a pistol should only be used to get you back to your rifle, or something like that?

 

[Slavex]

and you'd be wrong. More and more police departments in the USA are going 9mm. Price is better, pistols last longer, easier to control under recoil and more rounds in the mag. There is absolutely no reason to go bigger than 9mm. As others have noted shot placement is the most important part of pistol shooting. I've seen xrays (courtesy of Sherman) of a guy shot in the face with a 45, who not only survived, but managed to wander into the USA from Mexico and get medical care, days later. There are a number of Canadian PDs looking to go 9mm as well, but there are impediments to doing that because of poor law and policy written years ago.

Most of the FBI shootings are bad breath distance anyway. Which is why I find it odd that they have changed their training to 40 rds @ 3-7 yds IIRC, eliminating some 15-25 yd rounds, but yet going to a smaller caliber. Seems backwards. Train up close, but drop down in caliber.

Back in the late 80s, early 90s, seemed they were more concerned about under gunned and getting consistent penetration thru sheet metal and auto glass, thus the hyda shock. Which didn't seem too great on bad guys without prior barrier interference.

I just don't see a large amount of Depts. jumping back on the nine.

 

[Boltgun]

it is always comical to see these threads.

- 9 vs 40 vs 45
- you want a real stopper you need 45
- they should pick the round that has the highest one shot stop value
- 40 and 45 are great cause they feel snappy

you wanna know why FBI is likely gonna switch?

- 9 performs in ballistic testing as equally well as 40 and 45 and 357sig - this wasn't the case 20 years ago, but it is now.
- people who shoot less often are more prone to shooter errors
- 9 is easier to shoot than 40, 45 and 357sig
- most FBI agents are NOT avid shooter, just like most cops aren't.
- 9 is less harsh on the life of a typical handgun
- the FBI has spent MILLIONS of dollars on ballistic testing at their ballistic research facility

here are the basics
- rifles and shotguns are the best wounding tools out there period
- handguns are under-powered for personal defense
- and as it has already been said - shot placement is everything
- occasional shooters usually fair better with 9 vs 40/45/357
- 9 performs as well as 40/45/357, so why get a snappier, harder to shoot cartridge that gives you no extra performance

Be careful what you read on the errornet.

Boltgun

 

[skypilot]

and you'd be wrong. More and more police departments in the USA are going 9mm. Price is better, pistols last longer, easier to control under recoil and more rounds in the mag. There is absolutely no reason to go bigger than 9mm. As others have noted shot placement is the most important part of pistol shooting. I've seen xrays (courtesy of Sherman) of a guy shot in the face with a 45, who not only survived, but managed to wander into the USA from Mexico and get medical care, days later. There are a number of Canadian PDs looking to go 9mm as well, but there are impediments to doing that because of poor law and policy written years ago.

Time will tell I suppose. I carried a Sig P220 in the winter and a Beretta 92 in the summer for awhile then eventually just stayed with the Sig year round. I believe the Dept. carries .40 commonly but allows 9mm and budget will likely determine what's next.

 

[nada]

the FBI went from 38 to 45 to 9 to 10 to 40 , why not 357sig . it's either that they can't teach people how to shoot , [ or maybe it's politically incorrect to force them to be reasonably proficient with fire arms ] or the guy that orders the guns is getting a nice kick back . for any every day duty gun app a glock or whatever in 9 is good enough ,
if it's a crash & bang then it's time for 12 , 223 , 308 , 300 & forget the pistola .

 

[Standingtall]

As mentioned above, 9mm .40 .45 and .357 sig are all marginal in difference ballisticly now with the new innovations in ammunition. 9mm is cheaper, easier to shoot accurately, and lighter to carry extra rounds. Now the capacity only comes into play with law enforcement or military because they are not subject to the civilian magazine maximum of 10 round... so lets recap, 9mm is ballisticly the same with modern ammo is easier to shoot accurately, its lighter, and has a higher magazine capacity for law enforcement.
Those are the reasons .40 is dying, and hence the reason I can buy a glock 22 g4 for $600 and the glock 17 is $800....look at most .40's, they are cheaper than their 9 and 45 counterparts and its because its a dying caliber.

 

[dallasm]

9mm is ballisticly the same with modern ammo

I'm hearing this over and over - Is this actually true? What specific technological advancements in ammunition design have benefitted the 9mm cartridge, yet have not provided a similar benefit to the 40 and have resulted in 'ballisticly the same' performance?

 

[kschneider]

This is just a for instance, how would a .40 compare to a Mossberg T715 with a 25 shot mag, or a Ruger SR22 with a 110 round. I'm new to guns but I don't think I would be able to walk away with the better part of 110 CCI mini mags in me. And with the low recoil, I would think most would hit me, till I fall down anyway. But then, if your talking home defence, I guess my comparison is a moot point. Sorry, disregard. Merry Christmas.

 

[volitaire]

I'm hearing this over and over - Is this actually true? What specific technological advancements in ammunition design have benefitted the 9mm cartridge, yet have not provided a similar benefit to the 40 and have resulted in 'ballisticly the same' performance?

Hollowpoint and types of powder for faster velocities. Around 92 is when the Blacktalons came out I think in 9mm and got popular a few years later with LE.

Prior better powders more was better and prior to HP, bigger was better. Against unarmored people 9mm HP is still quite effective. But as they say, a pistol is what you use to get back to your rifle.

 

[RememberTheSomme]

Yup the .40S&W should have never happened. Bull####,.... had the .40 came first the .45 would have never happened, sorry. 9mm is the choice for overall cost and training comparability across the spectrum. Easy to shoot, lots of ammo, and it's cheap. A win- win with today's +P premium defence loads, and that's what a duty/military pistol is holstered for defence, not......cough*,cough* an offensive round like the .45ACP, and I mean really offensive, just like the fanboy's LOL.

 

[3strokes]

POSSIBLE is me getting nekid with 10 penthouse models simultaneously, highly improbable but possible.......

In New York, I couldn't order more than seven at a time.

 

[lejarretnoir]

I suppose the .45 ACP has it's fan boys considering there are more of those 1911's in that caliber than any other sold.

Back when it was designed for US military use, hardball was the only choice so bigger was better for knockdown punch. 9mm back then too was just hardball, so big hole was compared to smaller hole. The Russian decided that smaller was more ideal for them so they went with 7.62x25 for their pistols and subs guns. I believe a lot of these decisions were based also on economics. With two world wars behind us it would be interesting to see which pistol round killed the most or was more lethal.

I'm not worried about self defense in Canada as the option to carry a handgun legally has no meaning. I prefer the .22LR, .38 Special WC and 9mm RN for target practice. Much cheaper and fun. The .45 goes bang too, but my paper targets don't notice any extra ballistics because that's all I'm allowed to use it for in Canada. You can get all emotional about the 40 S&W too. I have nothing against it. Just don't have any dies or guns to shoot it with ATM.

 

[enefgee]

This is just a for instance, how would a .40 compare to a Mossberg T715 with a 25 shot mag, or a Ruger SR22 with a 110 round. I'm new to guns but I don't think I would be able to walk away with the better part of 110 CCI mini mags in me. And with the low recoil, I would think most would hit me, till I fall down anyway. But then, if your talking home defence, I guess my comparison is a moot point. Sorry, disregard. Merry Christmas.

This was the theory behind the AM180 SMG - which fired a huge volume of 22 LR at incredibly high rates of fire (as high as 1,500 rounds per minute) the result was a lethal gun, but not one that would stop a target quickly - in other words, guys died but they tended to take their own sweet time about it. As far as I'm concerned, the 9mm is a powerful enough round to damage, that is easier to shoot quickly and more accurately - the 40, while it might be more powerful, slows down follow up shots and isn't the equivalent of 2x9mm's - for that matter neither is the 45, and it's even slower (without a whole lot of practice). 357 Sig is dead, 45GAP is too. The 10mm survives as an enthusiasts round - having been the FBI's issued round for 27 seconds once.

 

[TDC]

This was the theory behind the AM180 SMG - which fired a huge volume of 22 LR at incredibly high rates of fire (as high as 1,500 rounds per minute) the result was a lethal gun, but not one that would stop a target quickly - in other words, guys died but they tended to take their own sweet time about it. As far as I'm concerned, the 9mm is a powerful enough round to damage, that is easier to shoot quickly and more accurately - the 40, while it might be more powerful, slows down follow up shots and isn't the equivalent of 2x9mm's - for that matter neither is the 45, and it's even slower (without a whole lot of practice). 357 Sig is dead, 45GAP is too. The 10mm survives as an enthusiasts round - having been the FBI's issued round for 27 seconds once.

Well put sir.

TDC

 

[jeffcarr88]

The ONLY thing that matters...

SHOT placement. People have been shot in the head or heart with all sorts of pistol calibers only to have to bounce off or not die...

Secondly...bullet type/construction. It matters A LOT more then the size/weight of the round.

SO

In order to be good at shot placement...you need to practice. Practicing with both a cheaper and easier to shoot gun means you get BETTER SOONER which is good for everybody (cept the bad guy).

Having a gun that holds more bullets means your chances of hitting a vital spot go up...having a gun that you can control well means you can get those vital shots in faster.