Concealed weapon or not: The bush and animal protection

Below is part of my exchange with the MNR in 2010 regarding the discharge of antique handguns in central Ontario (note: this area is in the middle of Ontario cottage country).

What I get from this is that it's fine to shoot an antique handgun on Crown Land in areas where firearms can be discharged. I sure wouldn't want to be spotted at some gravel pit shooting it, though. Like it or not, in this part of Ontario seeing someone shooting a handgun in the woods would raise alarm bells. All it takes is a phone call to set those wheels in motion, and if LEO show up for a gun call I don't think paperwork will smooth things over in the short term...

Everyone has to decide for themselves whether they'd personally be better served by ostentatiously testing the boundaries of their rights or discretely enjoying their hobby/ensuring their safety.


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Hi Paul,

I wrote you last December regarding target practice using firearms on the north shore of Healey Lake. I would also like to have some target practice with an antique revolver (which has had its antique status verified in writing by RCMP).

According to the Firearms Act, I can discharge it in any location where it is permitted to discharge a non-restricted firearm, and I assume this includes Crown Land. I will be following all elements of the Firearms Act with respect to possession, transportation and use of antique handguns, and will carry my RCMP antique-status documentation with me at all times. However, I would like to avoid any potential problems; in addition to the recommendations you give below, are there any other issues I should be aware of?

thanks,

van Schyndel, Paul (MNR) <paul.vanschyndel@ontario.ca>
13/04/2010

As long as you can legally carry your gun there are no restrictions for you to discharge the gun on Crown land other than the normal safety considerations.

Paul

Paul Van Schyndel
Parry Sound Enforcement Manager
Parry Sound

705-773-4200 or 705-646-5521
 
i'm not sure what bears you guys are referring to that you are going to shoot in self defense but if they are grizzly bears like where i am from the bear is not going to be phased by a antique revolver round unless the gun is a c96 mauser. the rest of the legal antique pistols are pea shooters that will have no affect. all you can hope for is the sound might scare them. i don't understand why you just don't carry a rifle. i can spin my winchester 94 off my shoulder , chamber a round, and fire pretty much as fast as you guys can unholster and pull your pistol and my shoot will have way more stopping power and accuracy.
 
RECURVE60 said:
i'm not sure what bears you guys are referring to that you are going to shoot in self defense but if they are grizzly bears like where i am from the bear is not going to be phased by a antique revolver round unless the gun is a c96 mauser. the rest of the legal antique pistols are pea shooters that will have no affect. all you can hope for is the sound might scare them. i don't understand why you just don't carry a rifle. i can spin my winchester 94 off my shoulder , chamber a round, and fire pretty much as fast as you guys can unholster and pull your pistol and my shoot will have way more stopping power and accuracy.
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I'm sure you can do that when standing in the ready position while not carrying anything. What about when you kneeled over tying your shoe? Or have a handful of wood? Or you've just pulled up your pants after taking a dump ? This is where handguns have the advantage. When you don't have both hands free or are in an awkward position for long gun handling.
 
Also a C96 Mauser pistol round tho a powerfull little cartridge id rather have a 45 schofield pushing + 800 FPS with a keith SWC 250 Gr bullet that cuts full 45 caliber holes in stuff. the penatration is very good. or 44 special with the same type of bullets.
I know guys with SAA Colts with newer cylinders shooting 900 FPS loads with 250 gr SWC lead keith bullets. They would rather have a six gun like that all the time than a long gun some of the time. Hardly pea shooters ;)
I do not think id want to face down griz with any antique pistol but if any bear was chewing on you and you could stick the barrel in his mouth or ear hole or eye your gona make him back up and take notice with the first shot if not kill it outright.
Better than waveing your #### at the bear or cougar or whatever :)
Long guns get put down thats why the sale of the extra short barreled shotguns have been so brisk. there still not as good as a handgun for haveing on you all the time but there better than the longer guns.
If your on a horse and it bolts off and dumps your sorry ass on the ground as you watch the horse run away with your long gun in its scabard you will be glad you have a handgun on your belt.
at least i know i would.
A gun belt with 20 rds and a decent loaded sixgun in a holster would be a great comfort to anyone caught in a bad spot in the Canadian Bush.
A great book to read about Handguns and being in the bush all aspects of handguns modern and antique and the loads they use is SIX GUNS by Elmer keith. you can buy them on Ebay used its a great read and you will be surprised what some antique handguns can do with the correct loads and bullets.
 
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where in bc do you normally hike and how many grizzlies he normally encounters. i work with several guys that regulary encounter grizzlies and have meet a fews guys that have been mauled and survived. one guy put 2 shots with a 308 win in a grizzly and it still kept coming at him and mauled him. it is all about shot placement and i highly doubt you could be accurate under pressure with a handgun and be fast enough to shot it accurately. once the bear is on you the guys i have talked to that survived told me that there isn't much you can do and there is little to no chance you could reach for and un holster a handgun then point it at there head to make the shot. imagine having a 800-900 pound animal on top of you tearing you to pieces and ask yourself how clear you will be thinking in that moment.
 
Any time someone wants to take on a charging bear with an 'antique' revolver, I want to be there to watch. I want to have my 50-70 carbine in my hot little paws to settle it.

I've had the experience of being charged by a bear and so has a friend. I asked him what gun would have been effective and he said - "One in my hands!". There is little time to prepare or draw any gun. He got a swat on the face out of it. In my case, the bear decided that two people and two dogs was more than he wanted to deal with. I was lucky.

Would I have wanted to have my .450 Tranter instead of the Sharps? Yeah, right ....

Wilderness carry would be a first good step towards legalizing CCW in urban environments. I encourage those who think they can convince the government to do so.
 
RECURVE60 said:
i'm not sure what bears you guys are referring to that you are going to shoot in self defense but if they are grizzly bears like where i am from the bear is not going to be phased by a antique revolver round unless the gun is a c96 mauser. the rest of the legal antique pistols are pea shooters that will have no affect. all you can hope for is the sound might scare them. i don't understand why you just don't carry a rifle. i can spin my winchester 94 off my shoulder , chamber a round, and fire pretty much as fast as you guys can unholster and pull your pistol and my shoot will have way more stopping power and accuracy.
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Okay, it's only two shots in a BP muzzleloader. But this antique howdah pistol was circa 1840s with wealthy tiger hunters in British colonial India. A .65 calibre handgun using 370 grain round ball, for giving big kitty cats a sudden incentive to be elsewhere. I believe few would refer to this one as a "peashooter." Although there are more modern and effective tools out there, any person with the stones to face off against a big angry critter at close range, could do much much worse then this choice.
 
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Nice Howda Brutus.
Reading in elmer keith book SIXGUNS Theres a few chapters on hunting with handguns.
the old timers used to sit up in a tree above a bait and with a cap and ball remy 1858s shoot a round ball right thru the top of a bears skull killing it outright.
The truth is theses old BP pistols did plenty of killing.
I had a antique single shot 50 70 remy single shot pistol that could or would kill anything i could manage to hit im sure, of course bullet placement is key on any good kill.
I do understand the Griz is one meen sob and id rather take him on with a 12 ga slug shotgun anyday than a antique handgun but alot of us cant carry a long gun all the time and a modern pistol is to much B.S to carry with the permits.
So we do the best we can its still better than nothing.
Reading Sixguns you will see in history lotsa game has and was taken by cap and ball pistols. its a great read anyone who loves antique handguns or handguns period should read that book.
lotsa good info on the use of 2400 smokeless powder and older pistols it got a slow presure curve simlar to BP.
 
dingus said:
Nice Howda Brutus.
Reading in elmer keith book SIXGUNS Theres a few chapters on hunting with handguns.
the old timers used to sit up in a tree above a bait and with a cap and ball remy 1858s shoot a round ball right thru the top of a bears skull killing it outright.
The truth is theses old BP pistols did plenty of killing.
I had a antique single shot 50 70 remy single shot pistol that could or would kill anything i could manage to hit im sure, of course bullet placement is key on any good kill.
I do understand the Griz is one meen sob and id rather take him on with a 12 ga slug shotgun anyday than a antique handgun but alot of us cant carry a long gun all the time and a modern pistol is to much B.S to carry with the permits.
So we do the best we can its still better than nothing.
Reading Sixguns you will see in history lotsa game has and was taken by cap and ball pistols. its a great read anyone who loves antique handguns or handguns period should read that book.
lotsa good info on the use of 2400 smokeless powder and older pistols it got a slow presure curve simlar to BP.
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^Thanks Dingus. I also have that book and I often refer to it on a regular basis. Just like yourself and some others here, I too count myself as a lover of the old ways. I feel very comfortable in these interesting discussions and I know you have often much to add here, so we tend to pay close attention to each others own personal experiences, regarding this interesting black powder harvesting tools subject.
There is nothing else I really can add to your post, as already you have pointed out some important facts that our forefathers (Elmer & Phil Sharp) already knew from thier numerous hunting/shooting experiences during thier very adventureous years on the North American frontier.

Cheers & A Happy New Year!! :)
 
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Let's start by convincing Big Brother to allow us to carry cap & ball pistols in the bush - original or repro.

I've got a Colt 2nd Gen 3rd Model Dragoon that would be a comfort and far more effective than a .455 Wobbly.
 
Sharps '63 said:
Let's start by convincing Big Brother to allow us to carry cap & ball pistols in the bush - original or repro.

I've got a Colt 2nd Gen 3rd Model Dragoon that would be a comfort and far more effective than a .455 Wobbly.
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Not if you get into a fire fight with a bear and need more than six rounds. What if the bear has an AK?
 
RECURVE60 said:
where in bc do you normally hike and how many grizzlies he normally encounters. i work with several guys that regulary encounter grizzlies and have meet a fews guys that have been mauled and survived. one guy put 2 shots with a 308 win in a grizzly and it still kept coming at him and mauled him. it is all about shot placement and i highly doubt you could be accurate under pressure with a handgun and be fast enough to shot it accurately. once the bear is on you the guys i have talked to that survived told me that there isn't much you can do and there is little to no chance you could reach for and un holster a handgun then point it at there head to make the shot. imagine having a 800-900 pound animal on top of you tearing you to pieces and ask yourself how clear you will be thinking in that moment.
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So in your opinion, people who you have never met will have no chance of accurately shooting a pistol in a high stress situation. So in your opinion we shouldn't bother trying to get one extra bit of advantage against a 900 lb grizzly. Yes, a large caliber rifle would be ideal against a bear. But if a bear is trying make me it's chew toy, I'll take an antique pistol over my bare hands any day.
 
We need to be careful but not hide behind trees for fear someone might see us.
As someone here has said, beats waving your #### in the air if something should
happens all of a sudden.
 
ths is kinda off topic, but if you guys want a light weight, short, easy to carry firearm that is legal for the bush you might consider the rossi ranch hand or mare's leg in .44 mag or .454 casull. Both guns are only about 25 inches long. also you might consider a 12 inch barrel 12 gauge shotgun, they are perfectly legal as well.
 
RECURVE60 said:
ths is kinda off topic, but if you guys want a light weight, short, easy to carry firearm that is legal for the bush you might consider the rossi ranch hand or mare's leg in .44 mag or .454 casull. Both guns are only about 25 inches long. also you might consider a 12 inch barrel 12 gauge shotgun, they are perfectly legal as well.
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Yes, you are off topic. Besides that point, two of us have taken you to task in Post 242 of yours.
You choose not to answer them. Which is fine, but why should anyone make further attempts to commnicate with yourself, when our words obviously fall on your deaf ears??
 
Win 38-55 said:
No worries, gents. I have a thick skin and cut fellows a lot of slack (my avatar photo notwithstanding:cool:). The key thing I wanted to emphasize is in an actual situation where a LEO or CO is giving you a problem, to remain icy calm and courteous. It is after they are gone, and you are back home, that if there has been an abuse of authority, you can then take the proper channels of recourse. One thing I appreciate about Sharpes '63 is that he has discretion, over the top maybe, but he has discretion. I'll take that any day rather than some yahoo who wants to exercise his rights and do fool things with his antiques. I think most of us on this board have discretion and that is the bottom line. I enjoy and practice my freedoms, but I don't flaunt them in front of the gunphobes.
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I'm one of those city dwellers, do not hunt, can't find a bathroom in the bush type.
But, I've read every word you folks posted. I can't thank you enough for it.

As far as an encounter with an LEO (see above bolded) while packing an antique goes.......well..........
I would simply curl up in a ball and start crying like a little girl.

I think i'll start a stamp collection............
 
I see that some wag has tagged me with the sobriquet "Big Mouth". Win 38-55 has another opinion. Discretion? Moi? Over the top? I don't know if I'm being insulted or flattered ..... ;>) Either way, I couldn't care less.

I like to think I call it as I see it and I do have a quick to react BS detector. Time and again we are subjected to the pipe dreams of armchair sportsmen who seem to be living in a different reality than the rest of us. I always appreciate it when some of the wiser, more experienced among us inject a little common sense into the discussion. It's fine to fantasize about what we'd like to be legally allowed to do and carry in the bush, but that isn't our current reality.

The fact is that the average citizen is at far greater risk from attack on the streets of our major cities than any of us that spend any amount of time in the bush. I'm lucky in that I step out the door and I'm in game country. When I go hunting it is usually alone and I rarely stick to a game plan, much to the consternation of my wife. If I went down, it would most likely be in a place not many would go as I hate walking in the boot tracks of others. I accept any associated risks as part of the game.

My experience with bears is based on half a dozen that fell to a .308, the largest two I've taken (400 lbs+) taken with a 50-70 using BP. They are a critter to be taken seriously, even the smaller ones if they get riled. Most non-habituated bears constitute no threat, running away at the first whiff or sight of a human. Other than that, it's like shooting a pig with fur - boars and sows. The circumstances that would cause one to charge are rare and exceptional.

I have walked in the tracks of grizzlies several times without actually seeing the bear, and glad of it! My 50-70 or .308 makes me feel very under-gunned when I do. Having to deal with one with a handgun is the stuff of nightmares. The attack would be swift and powerful - nature's version of ''shock & awe" in extremis!

Recurve60 makes a very good case for packing a Mare's Leg in a calibre that starts with the number '4', loaded with the hottest load you and the gun can handle. It's about the only useful purpose for the design I can imagine other than the cool factor; no offence to Steve McQueen. It it's carried in the appropriate holster, it is going to get wet, bashed and dirty, but at least it will be handy, allowing hands free for trapping, gold panning, etc . That applies to one of the shorty 12 ga as well.

In the meantime, I still await the report of an encounter with a LEO or a bear in the bush while packing an 'antique' revolver - which ever comes first. It has exciting possibilities either way.
 
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