Concealed weapon or not: The bush and animal protection

[dingus]

Rather than see a test case centring on someone getting busted by an uninformed LEO for packing and using an 'antique' in the boonies, I'd rather it be one where said gun was used in an urban environment against some creep intent on smashing in the head of a fifty year old hockey Mom.

In the case of the VPD detective I mentioned, he requested the meter installers to leave and called for a police presence to witness him asking them to leave. A cop arrived, spoke to the contractors but didn't speak to the caller. The next day, three cops arrived with a warrant and confiscated his guns. Check it out on Sun News and on the Canadian Firearms Digest.
The guy thought nothing of it and did not have a lawyer when he went to court. He had been a fraud investigator and thought he knew how the system worked. That was before the implementation of the Prime Directive, and now things have changed.

I think it's apparent whose head is in the sand on this topic. Some obviously think that the government and the police are the friends of Canadian gun owners. I've been active in the fight since Ron Basford was PET's Minister of Justice and we've been losing guns steadily ever since.

Very few Canadians are 'registered', required to inform the government when they move - convicted pedophiles and gun owners. Of the two, gun owners face a greater penalty for failing to comply. Some may find this acceptable, I do not. Nor do I find acceptable ANY of the impositions and restrictions imposed on gun owners. We are a 'soft' target, the focus of the anti-gun agenda of successive governments, regardless of their political stripe.

Yikes!! urban environment Discharge! well i sure as hell dont want anyone shooting anyone with a antique handgun for intent alone ?
Some Creep intent on bashing someone how are you going to prove intent ? Good luck with that you will be charged with attempted murder and the antique handgun in the eyes of the law becomes a non antique firearm as soon as its used in a crime.
This is not helping anyone stateing stuff like that ^

Lets get back on subject here eh theres no Urban discharge discussions.
This thread is about bush carry of antique handguns that in Canada are legal to have and use anywhere you can carry a none restricted rifle.
The thred is about Animals the 4 legged kind. LOL

There have been plenty of members myself included that have called CFOs to check if we can carry and discharge our antique handguns in the bush they were told the way the Transport and used rules are wrote we can.
if you cant figger out the Canadian transport and use regs for firearms just read it a few times there a section that says most of the sections do not apply to antique firearms its not that hard to figger out.
I have been told to that when you get where your going to the use spot it can of course be taken out of its locked case out your car or truck and holsterd as long as the holster is out in the open its not concealed. like a Flap holster on a shoulder strap. like haveing a rifle in a scabard carrying it on your back you have to be able to move it thru the bush someway and for handguns holsters are the normal way that is done. common sence helps to in figgering this stuff out.
The reason for "use" tho should be target shooting as you can not hunt with a antique handgun in most of Canada but we can target shoot on crown land no problem.
So holstered and loaded is in use so for that you must be in a place you can legaly discharge a none restricted rifle.
Last time i checked Urban areas are not legal for discharge of firearms.

 

[legi0n]

Most non-habituated bears constitute no threat, running away at the first whiff or sight of a human. Other than that, it's like shooting a pig with fur - boars and sows. The circumstances that would cause one to charge are rare and exceptional.

2011 Canadian study pretty much contradicts what you said

In an article published today in the Journal of Wildlife Management, University of Calgary professor emeritus Dr. Stephen Herrero, U of C graduate Andrew Higgins, and colleagues from the Massachusetts Division of Fisheries and Wildlife and Brigham Young University analyzed the circumstances of all recorded deaths inflicted by non-captive black bears in North America between 1900 and 2009. The study found that 63 people were killed in 59 incidents in Canada, Alaska and the lower 48 states. The researchers determined that the majority (88%) of fatal attacks involved a bear exhibiting predatory behaviour, and 92% of the predatory bears were males. The authors suggest male black bears have evolved some different behaviours than females.

...therefore, one needs to be ready to defend oneself in circumstances where handling a long firearm is not an option.
Also, let's not forget antique revolvers are self reloading and hold at least 6 rounds.

 

[Sharps '63]

Since there are more black bears than grizzlies, especially in areas most frequented by humans, it stands to reason that there would be more incidents with black bears. Grizzlies do not hang around urban or even rural areas looking for a quick meal.
Bear hunting is not as popular as it once was, and even curtailed in some jurisdictions. This means a lot of habituated bears with no fear of humans.

I would hazard a guess that fewer people survive grizzly attacks, and those that do are usually badly mauled.

Some 'antiques' may chamber 6 rounds, but not all. My .450 Tranter 'Army' holds five. If you are packing an 'antique' SAA, you are smart to carry it with an empty chamber under the hammer. Your six shooter is now a five shooter.
My Tranter has a rebounding hammer so it is quite safe to carry fully loaded with five rounds.

 

[Zircarg]

Quite some time ago I contacted the Firearms Centre to enquire about target shooting with an antique hand gun in the NS wilderness and their communications officer told me to contact the Department of Natural Resources to advise of any local regulations.

The DNR response was as follows:

"There is no exemption or special provisions to allow a person to possess or discharge a antique firearm in a wildlife habitat. As such, target shooting must be done at an approved range. You can hunt with antique firearms, however, you require the same licences and certification as a person in possession of a traditional firearm." He was referring to hunting with antique long guns here, not hand guns.

I have to wonder if the NS CFO shares the same opinion. DNR is a provincial department, however, if the RCMP are saying that the provinces have jurisdiction in this regard, I'm not sure that it would matter what the CFO thinks.

It appears that not all provinces are of like mind when it comes to antiques and target shooting on Crown land. It would be nice to have consensus - one way or another.

 

[cyclone]

You can hunt with antique firearms, however, you require the same licences and certification as a person in possession of a traditional firearm." He was referring to hunting with antique long guns here, not hand guns.

You sure ?

 

[Zircarg]

You sure ?

Yep.

I emailed him to confirm as follows:

"Hello ****,

I appreciate the clarification on that. It seems that I will be spending my time at a local range instead of target shooting in the great outdoors.

The only other question I have, which stems from your comments below, is whether one can hunt with an antique pistol (and not just an antique rifle)."

His response:

"Handguns of any type are not permitted for hunting. If you have any other questions do not hesitate to call me or flip me an email."

 

[dingus]

Quite some time ago I contacted the Firearms Centre to enquire about target shooting with an antique hand gun in the NS wilderness and their communications officer told me to contact the Department of Natural Resources to advise of any local regulations.

The DNR response was as follows:

"There is no exemption or special provisions to allow a person to possess or discharge a antique firearm in a wildlife habitat. As such, target shooting must be done at an approved range. You can hunt with antique firearms, however, you require the same licences and certification as a person in possession of a traditional firearm." He was referring to hunting with antique long guns here, not hand guns.

I have to wonder if the NS CFO shares the same opinion. DNR is a provincial department, however, if the RCMP are saying that the provinces have jurisdiction in this regard, I'm not sure that it would matter what the CFO thinks.

It appears that not all provinces are of like mind when it comes to antiques and target shooting on Crown land. It would be nice to have consensus - one way or another.

I have heard that about NS im not sure its right tho, it would be worth contacting your CFO as i think your DNR guy is talking about wildlife reserves. If you can discharge a none restricted rifle at targets in the NS crown land (not wildlife habitat) then i cant see how they can say you cant target shoot with a Antique handgun.
Some of theses guys are just anti gun and will point you in the wrong direction on purpose also the DNR might not know anything about the transport and use Regs.
The transport and use regs are Canada wide.
unless the N.S DNR can point out where antique handguns are not legal in there regs then he is just guessing at the true regulations.
Look into it more never just go by one what guy in some office is saying to you.
We can not Hunt in B.C either with antique handguns but target shooting on Crown land or anywhere a non restricted firearm can be discharged is ok unless your DNR guy can point out to some NS law that preceeds the T&U regs then i think he is wrong.
Im not up on NS rules tho eh, im sure theres other members on here from NS that will chime in when there power is back on and there finished digging out there homes from all that snow
I think ON is the only place thats flexible on hunting with antique handguns. Thats going off some Emails from the ON MNR posted here on CGN.

Maby someone can post a link to the.....

STORAGE DISPLAY TRANSPORTATION and HANDLING OF FIREARMS BY INDIVIDUALS

Theres 18 sections ^

I can Never find it in the stickys. everyone should have all sections of this Printed off before they talk to anyone. It really helps if you have this info.....

 

[Zircarg]

Apparently here in Nova Scotia, one can only be in the woods with a firearm when it is 'in season'. I found this post on another NS online forum:

"In order to discharge a firearm on crown land, there has to be a season open that allows the use of the firearm you are shooting and, yes, you have to be hunting.
At the current time, you are allowed to hunt coyotes with a shotgun and certain sizes of shot. Outside of a public range, (and you are required to call for an appointment at the DNR office) or gun club, That is the only way you can be in on crown land with a firearm. The appointment gives you a temporary "travel permit" for the amount of time it would take you to travel the most direct route to and from the range. You must also have someone accompany you - a buddy, your wife, etc. For liability reasons, no one is allowed on the range alone. Even if it was your own land, and you had enough land to meet the legal distances and be safe, unless you have an approved range on your property, you cannot legally discharge a firearm unless there is a season open that the firearm used is legal in and you are properly licensed, with Wildlife Resource Card, Habitat Stamp and all."

This would seem to clearly suggest that since an antique hand gun can't be used for hunting purposes, as stated by DNR, and target shooting is not a valid reason to have any type of gun on Crown land, its therefore not possible to discharge an antique hand gun outside of a range even though other non-restricted firearms can be when they are used 'in season' strictly for hunting.

Despite this, I do think I will be having a little chat with the CFO about all of this. So much craziness!

 

[dingus]

Yes thats the stupid part of NS rules that i heard about. I knew there was some Law or rule they had that was diffrent from any other province.
But for sure talk to a CFO and get a copy of the Storage and use regs and read that thru and thru a few times to before you call.
I shoot my antique handguns at the Range even tho i do bush carry. I just find the range more relaxing and they have the nice dry benchs and its good to be part of a range anyway.

 

[Sharps '63]

I'm hoping that in 2014, we get a definitive answer to the question. However, since the PCPO's have a lot of latitude in the regulations they impose, this is unlikely. What applies in one province may or may not apply elsewhere.

The regs/rules/laws are drafted to allow provincial interpretation rather than be cut and dried. The cops, the courts and the lawyers need to have something to do.

When one gets an RCMP letter, it would be beneficial if a copy of the applicable national and provincial laws was included, specifically about the where, when and how the gun may be carried and discharged. But that would be aiding and abetting owners in compliance with the law.

If it remains a grey area, someone's ass is going to wind up in court. The decision will not set a precedent for other provinces and the misinformation will lead to other court cases if we assume that we know the law.

 

[The Kurgan]

I'm sure the Trailer Park Boys had something to do with the NS laws!

As said above, the regs/rules/laws are drafted to allow provincial interpretation.

 

[FishHog]

thanks everyone for the great read. Not sure why Sharps is so argumentative through the entire thread, but I enjoyed most of it. And not sure what your "still awaiting" for?
I think we all realize that bears can be tough to kill. But some have also been killed with spears, bows and .22. So as a smart man said early on "its better than waving your #### in the air".
I also think a lot of us realize that in many attacks, there is no time to do anything. But not sure why you think that means we shouldn't be ready for the others that you have time.
And yes many major cities are more dangerous than the bush. But were all smart enough to know what would happen if we packed an antique through downtown. So its not much of an argument.
Either way, do what you want, and we will do what we want. If someone ends up dead from a bear or in jail when they were carrying an antique, you can say "I told you so".
Until then, I respect the guys who enjoy themselves and take some precautions for themselves and their families.

 

[Newfoundlandrover]

I personally think the .22 pistol should be exempt for Sportsmen. Its a utilitarian round.

 

[plinker 777]

Guys, Crown land is just that!? It belongs to the Crown, not the province. This is Federal land under Federal Law jurisdiction (the Queen/King signed off on these "laws" making them such, technically She/he, owns/owned the land) if you're not hunting anything, the MNR can "f@%k right off", so can you're respective provincial police forces. If you're breaking the law (big "if") it would be the RCMP to enforce the breach of Federal law.

 

[The Kurgan]

Guys...the MNR can "f@%k right off".

D-f'n-ITTO !!

 

[shawn]

Guys, Crown land is just that!? It belongs to the Crown, not the province. This is Federal land under Federal Law jurisdiction (the Queen/King signed off on these "laws" making them such, technically She/he, owns/owned the land) if you're not hunting anything, the MNR can "f@%k right off", so can you're respective provincial police forces. If you're breaking the law (big "if") it would be the RCMP to enforce the breach of Federal law.

LOL sure ok let us know how that works out for you

Shawn

 

[Zircarg]

Guys, Crown land is just that!? It belongs to the Crown, not the province. This is Federal land under Federal Law jurisdiction (the Queen/King signed off on these "laws" making them such, technically She/he, owns/owned the land) if you're not hunting anything, the MNR can "f@%k right off", so can you're respective provincial police forces. If you're breaking the law (big "if") it would be the RCMP to enforce the breach of Federal law.

Provinces are sovereign with each having direct representation of Her Majesty by lieutenant Governors. Therefore provinces administer most of the Crown land within their boundaries, not the federal Crown. In NS, the Minister of Natural Resources 'administers' (read controls) this land on behalf of the provincial Crown. We effectively have 11 Crowns in Canada - one federal and 10 provincial. Swiped this from Wikipedia:

'Though the Canadian monarch owns all Crown Land in the country, paralleling the "division" of the Crown amongst the federal and provincial governments, Crown Land is similarly divided so that some lands within the province are administered by the provincial Crown, whereas others are under the federal Crown. About 89% of Canada's land area (8,886,356 km²) is Crown Land, which may either be federal (41%) or provincial (48%); the remaining 11% is privately owned.[7]

Most federal Crown land is in the Canadian territories (Northwest Territories, Nunavut and Yukon), and is administered by Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada. Only 4% of land in the provinces is federally controlled, largely in the form of National Parks, Indian reserves, or Canadian Forces bases. In contrast, provinces hold much of their territory as provincial Crown Land, which may be held as Provincial Parks or wilderness.'

 

[Zircarg]

To add insult to injury with all of this transportation-related nonsense, we in Nova Scotia require a rifle transport permit to take our non-restricted rifles to the range:

Department of Natural Resources
Rifle Transport Permit

Who Needs This Permit?

Anyone who wants to transport a firearm, when otherwise prohibited.

Issuing Department / Agency:
N.S. Department of Natural Resources

Where can you get this Permit and / or further information?
Any of the Local or Area Offices of the N.S. Department of Natural Resources. (See offices, N.S. Department of Natural Resources.)

Application Forms & Process:
Individuals wanting a permit to carry a firearm: An applicant can get an application from any Local or Area Office of the N.S. Department of Natural Resources. (See contacts, above, and Offices, N.S. Department of Natural Resources.)

If all requirements are met and the application is approved, the permit will be issued right away, if the applicant comes to the office, or sent to the applicant by mail.

Waiting Period:
Same day

Expiry & Renewal:
This permit is valid for the time period specified on it. It is renewable. The renewal process is started by the permit holder, and should be started before it expires.

Price:
Free

Related Requirements:
Proof of status as a commercial fisherman;
Nuisance Wildlife Permit;
Nuisance Wildlife Operator Licence;
Shooting Range Approval
Posession Only Licence or Posession and Acquisition Licence

Additional Information:
No permit is normally required to transport a shotgun.

It is an offence to take, carry, or possess a rifle in and upon a wildlife habitat in Nova Scotia when the hunting season is closed. A permit must be obtained at such times to permit rifles to be lawfully carried to an approved range or for the control of nuisance wildlife.

This permit does not authorize transport of a restricted firearm. Such requests will be referred to local police forces.

Commercial fishermen permitted by law to shoot grey seals may be issued permits.

These permits are valid only for the time period specified.

Legislative Authority:
Wildlife Act, Revised Statutes of Nova Scotia, 1989, Chapter 504, Section 79

 

[Brutus]

deleted

 

[The Kurgan]

NS is the new Ontario! I thought we had it bad here! Brutal.