Concealed weapon or not: The bush and animal protection

No worries, gents. I have a thick skin and cut fellows a lot of slack (my avatar photo notwithstanding:cool:). The key thing I wanted to emphasize is in an actual situation where a LEO or CO is giving you a problem, to remain icy calm and courteous. It is after they are gone, and you are back home, that if there has been an abuse of authority, you can then take the proper channels of recourse. One thing I appreciate about Sharpes '63 is that he has discretion, over the top maybe, but he has discretion. I'll take that any day rather than some yahoo who wants to exercise his rights and do fool things with his antiques. I think most of us on this board have discretion and that is the bottom line. I enjoy and practice my freedoms, but I don't flaunt them in front of the gunphobes.
 
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For clarification - I am not "enraged" and Win 38-55 is smart enough to not take my remarks on a personal level. However, I am 'outraged' by the current state of affairs whereby lawful citizens even feel the need to have such conversation. It's a matter of trust and I simply do not trust the average LEO to know anything about gun laws and what's legal or not. Win 38-55 correctly identifies this as "discretion", not fear.

I've seen too many examples of "over the top" reaction by police directed not at criminals, but average lawful gun owners exercising their 'rights'. If you subscribe to the Canadian Firearms Digest, you know the all too frequent and increasing number of such incidents. Police are issuing warnings regarding non-guns as part of Hallowe'en costumes and I fully expect a few takedowns resulting from indiscrete flashing of fake guns. It is established police policy.
And for the record, I do own a couple of lettered 'antiques' and have owned others in the past. It galls me that another I own cannot be 'lettered' due to it's calibre and barrel length. Utter horse $hit, but Canadian society is safer for it, right?
Since we get our 'antiques' lettered with the sanction and approval of the RCMP, they are in every way 'registered', along with our non-antiques and prohibs. The only difference is in the grey area of where they can be discretely and legally discharged.

I've noticed that the loudest mouthpieces on this topic have not proven their case with first hand accounts of their experiences using lettered 'antiques' in the field and encountering LEOs. They adamantly regurgitate their 'rights' while never putting them to the test in the real world.
 
Quite frankly I've not had an interaction with LE regarding firearms in my life.
I hunt & shoot lots, but manage to not put myself into situations that do not require my to 'prove my case with first hand accounts of their experiences using lettered 'antiques' in the field and encountering LEOs'
I was out today with my 41 LC ( carry the antique letter and copy of the act in my back pocket). I managed to not encounter any LE and would be quite happy if I went the rest of my life doing the same.
Unless of course someone feels the need to march up to a LE wearing an antique and ends up going to court. Which might get this right of ours ended. If a LE encounter happens by accident, so be it. But I'm not wasting their time and taking the chance on getting shot by provoking an encounter to prove a 'right'.
Cowardly, hardly. Just discreet IMO
 
Some of us, eshew the 'antique letter'. Why volunteer the registration of ones private property, when the law does not require doing so?.

Not for me, hopefully, to be first in front of the judge on a frivolous antique charge.

Import/Customs, FTR, CCofC, and FA documents in hand, I go quietly about my business. And hope to keep it this way.
 
tokguy

No one accused you or anyone else of being cowardly as opposed to discreet. Nor was I advocating running up to the nearest LEO and showing him your 'antique' and docs. I am saying that until it becomes an issue, we're all just speculating as to the possible outcome.

Any of us could just as easily run afoul of the law with a non-antique gun. I wish you and all 'antique' letter holders every continued success and enjoyment of your guns afield.

In the meantime, we need to focus on the decriminalization of firearms use in general, particularly regarding personal protection, not just 'antiques'. It has always baffled me as to why I can pack a .338 Lapua with impunity but need to be "discreet" with a pissant BP 'antique' with limited range and power.
Historically, there thousands of such guns in the hands of people and the world was a better and safer place. While we're at it, let's bring back the buffalo as well .... ;>

Rant mode off.
 
apu said:
The unofficial legal crown opinion I got recently on this was paraphrased as : I can't find anything wrong with this scenario but I likely could and ultimately you don't want to find out. This was discussed in the following thread
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=415788

I took this to mean that likely you are ok but the government has unlimited resources to prosecute you if it serves their interests .
Click to expand...

That is a real shame, because ambiguity is not what we need with this especially since like he said if he wants your screwed. Canada has a knack for writting piss poor legislation that instead of helping hinders and is interpreted on the spot instead of having a protocol that is reasonable to back it up.
 
I would like to have a little discussion on the documentation that everybody recommends you carry with you when taking an antique out in the bush, or even just out to shoot. I understand the legislation, but everyone keeps recommending an RCMP letter. What if you don't have an RCMP letter? What is an acceptable form of documentation then? My understanding is in order to get an RCMP letter, you have to turn your antique into the RCMP and they will exam it and it may be accepted or not and it may be returned or not. A little help here please.
 
I may have been a little hasty, everyone. Upon further browsing I came upon the "Antique Firearm Status" letter which lays out everything for any cop that wants to know. Perhaps not as good as an RCMP letter, but certainly good enough to get any aggressive cop to back off.
 
Ok Re Bush Carry with a Antique handgun Below is the Reply from the province of ON MNR
To a email a freind of mine whos a hunter and trapper in ON wrote asking if it was AOK to carry a Antique handgun for the purpose of defence from wildlife.

This is the frist Offical reply i have seen that says its AOK .


The email Request was that the firearm was a HANDGUN and Antique.



On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 3:44 PM, NRIC, MNR (MNR)
<mnr.nric.mnr@ontario.ca> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> MNR has no problems with this provided you are using the firearm in a
> manner in which you are permitted and you have all the necessary
> paperwork on your person that is legally required under the Firearms
> Act and associated regulations. The Chief Firearms Officer of Ontario

> can tell you what documents you are legally bound to carry. You can
> reach them at 1-800-731-4000.
>
> If asked by an officer you may have to prove that you're not hunting
> but in fact only using this firearm for protection or for trapping
purposes.
>
> Regards,
>
> NRIC web reader - CG
> ************************************
> Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources
> Natural Resources Information Centre
> 300 Water Street,P.O. Box 7000
> Peterborough, ON K9J 8M5
> 1-800-667-1940
> TTY: 1-866-686-6072
> Fax: 705-755-1677
 
Very interesting.
Thank you dingus.

Would it be possible to post(or PM) a redacted copy of the original response?.

If ever questioned in the field, I intend to present the Officer with as much documentation as possible.

Import/Customs, FTR, CCofC, and FA documents in hand
Click to expand...
This MNR statement would no doubt carry some weight to a CO.
 
The reply from the Ontario MNR is their ongoing policy re. firearms in the bush that is consistent with a couple phone conversations I've had with the MNR. Basically there are two things they want:

1. The firearm use and carrying is legal
2. That you are not hunting.

(2) is a bit vague. I'm not sure how you prove you were not hunting. In talking personally with the MNR the fellow I was talking with seemed to be very reasonable. He would make his assessment on a number of factors. In my case, I was bringing a 30-30 carbine into the bush to provide security for my wife and kids during a wilderness camping and canoeing expedition during bear hunting season, when I had no bear hunting permit. He said he would have no problem with that at all, as we have a reason, other than hunting, to have it in the bush (i.e., security for the family in case of bear problems). He advised that it could be more of a problem if I was walking around in the bush, carrying my 30-30 at the ready, looking as if I was hunting. In general, if it is during a hunting season where one is not supposed to be in the bush with a gun without a hunting permit, he said to avoid the appearance of hunting, or doing anything that would make it appear as if I was hunting. Having a gun in with our gear, portaging, in camp, fishing, would not be deemed to be 'hunting', at least by him.
 
They sent him this later if you read down aways you will see they do say he can hunt small game with his antique handgun........



As per Ontario Regulation 665/98 – Hunting:



10. (1) Subject to this section, the hunter apprenticeship safety card shall be deemed to be a hunting licence. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 10 (1).

(2) The deemed licence is subject to the following conditions:

1. Wildlife may be hunted by the apprentice only under the direct and immediate supervision of a hunter who is at least 18 years of age and who holds a hunting licence to hunt the species of wildlife that the apprentice is hunting.

2. The holder of a class A1 hunter apprenticeship safety card shall not carry or use a firearm other than the single firearm that he or she is sharing with the licensed hunter under whose supervision he or she is hunting.

3. The holder of a class A2 hunter apprenticeship safety card shall not carry or use a firearm other than the single bow or crossbow that he or she is sharing with the licensed hunter under whose supervision he or she is hunting. O. Reg. 665/98, s. 10 (2); O. Reg. 600/05, s. 6.

(3) A person hunting under a hunter apprenticeship



Section 10.(2) 1. states that the apprentice must be “under the direct and immediate supervision of a hunter who is at least 18 years of age….” The point of the Ontario Hunter Apprenticeship Safety Program (OHASP) is to allow youth the opportunity to safely develop their hunting skills while under the direct and immediate supervision of a qualified mentor. These regulations are in place for the personal safety of the apprentice, the mentor and for the public. These regulations are intended to allow for the mentor to provide support and guidance to new hunters as they learn the sport. Having a second firearm (your antique handgun) in the equation makes it difficult for you to provide your full and direct attention to your mentor while they use a rifle.



Section 10.(2)2. states that you may only have one shared firearm between the two of you. You may either carry the long gun or the antique handgun. Both may not be carried at the same time.



You may use your antique handgun to dispatch furbearing animals captured under the authority of your trapping licence. You may also hunt small game with your antique handgun during the open season.



Big game species such as deer, moose and elk may only be hunted using the class of firearm prescribed by the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act:



69. The classes of firearm set out in column 2 of the Table to this section, each consisting of the firearms set out in column 3, are prescribed for the purpose of this Regulation and Ontario Regulation 670/98 (Open Seasons — Wildlife) as the classes of firearm that a person may use or carry to hunt deer, elk or moose.

TABLE

Items
Column 1
Column 2
Column 3


Species
Class of Firearm
Content of Class

1.
Moose, Elk, Deer
Class 1
Bow

2.
Moose, Elk, Deer
Class 2
Bow, or muzzle-loading gun

3.
Deer
Class 3
Bow, shotgun, or muzzle-loading gun

4.
Moose, Elk, Deer
Class 4
Rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading gun

5.
Deer
Class 5
Muzzle-loading gun

6.
Deer
Class 6
Shotgun, or muzzle-loading gun

7.
Moose, Elk, Deer
Class 7
Bow, rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading gun


O. Reg. 581/99, s. 4; O. Reg. 320/06, s. 2; O. Reg. 529/10, s. 10; O. Reg. 49/11, s. 17.

70. A person who hunts deer, elk or moose shall not use or carry a firearm unless the firearm is of a class specified for use during the open season applicable to the species, person and area in Ontario Regulation 670/98 (Open Seasons — Wildlife). O. Reg. 581/99, s. 4; O. Reg. 529/10, s. 11.



We hope you have found this information helpful.



Regards,
 
A CO like that ^, is more than welcome in my camp.
If only they all could be as enlightened as that fellow is.

The paperwork?, it's for those LEO's that may appreciate reviewing some legitimate doc's. before deciding on how to proceed.

Not all LEO's will do it that way, ... but chances are, the discrete antique user will never get themselves to being questioned in the first place.

BTW 38-55, its been too long since you posted a pic of that exceptional Shofield/Peacemaker. My dream gun. It shivers me timbers just looking at it.
 
Thanks guys for an interesting read, one question though in that letter Dingus.

Quote/
MNR has no problems with this provided you are using the firearm in a
> manner in which you are permitted and you have all the necessary
> paperwork on your person that is legally required under the Firearms
> Act and associated regulations. The Chief Firearms Officer of Ontario

> can tell you what documents you are legally bound to carry. You can
> reach them at 1-800-731-4000.
>
> If asked by an officer you may have to prove that you're not hunting
> but in fact only using this firearm for protection or for trapping
purposes.

End Quote/

For protection of life, would that not require you to have a wilderness carry permit?
 
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