Picture of the day
- Thread starter jwhc
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I had the absolutely horrendous opportunity to launch a PIAT projectile 6 times in two days. I have the shoulder damage to prove it. The PIAT was OK if you had no other choice and was also quite effective, even on large tanks if proper placement of the shaped charge warhead was possible. Usually up the backside, straight on. Try laying in a position waiting for the beast to roll by, maybe escorted by Grenadiers or support vehicles, crawl into a proper stance and angle to fire from and get shoved back a foot, every time you squeezed the trigger lever. Not the best two days of my life.
Maybe a few people liked them. Personally, it was all that was on hand at the time and I was extremely satisfied with the results attained with 30 year old projectiles/shaped charges. I was also very happy to trade the dam-ed thing in for an RPG7. We only had six projectiles, so it got driven over and made inoperable anyway. Didn't hurt my feelings one bit. Not then, not now. The RPG7 is one hell of a weapon. When used properly, anyone of any stature can get effective results.
The PIATs spring supposedly just ignited the propellant in the rear tube of the projectile that the fins were attached to. Just take one thing into account though. I have always been a man of medium stature, completely average in all respects. I was not strong enough or tall enough to pull up the spring enough to #### it. Ask yourself how much felt recoil there is happening when the ignition of the propellant is enough to re set that spring for the next round. That little tiny leather pad covering a half inch of felt is seemingly there for show only.
Also take into account that the beast weights over 15kgs without a projectile and close to 20kgs with one. This means it can't be fired off hand, unless you are superman. They were usually deployed from a prone position. Yes, after the first round, I developed a serious blink and flinch. Bruising you say????? From the top of the shoulder to mid rib cage. Not so bad after only one round but after no 2, even under extreme stress, the recoil was brutal at best.
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The only types of rockets we had access to were the high explosive anti personal type, which had an impact ignition system that was a bit strange. The warhead was a shaped charge with a detonate on impact tip. There was a rod through the explosive head to a detonator at the bottom of the charge. The warheads on these were filled with some sort of plastique and the exterior shell had steel pellets impregnated. Nasty things, that did exactly what they were intended to, completely reliable as long as they were pointed in the right direction.
The other was an anti armor round (few and far between). Similar in operation but it had a hollow nose and slightly larger shaped charge for a warhead. Instead of igniting on impact, there was a five second delay fuse that allowed the charge to form itself against whatever it hit. It had enough snort to penetrate the door of a truck but not both. Very effective against trucks. Never had the chance to use one against armor.
The other was an anti armor round (few and far between). Similar in operation but it had a hollow nose and slightly larger shaped charge for a warhead. Instead of igniting on impact, there was a five second delay fuse that allowed the charge to form itself against whatever it hit. It had enough snort to penetrate the door of a truck but not both. Very effective against trucks. Never had the chance to use one against armor.
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Damn, man - what high school did you go to? 
with this in mind read smokey smiths VC citation htt p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Smith
the old line that recoil is irrelevant when there is a tiger about to pounce on you also applies to panthers
Chuck Norris Secondary!
This reminds me to much of a hack or exploit in a WW2 PC game back a few years ago.
You could get a donkey that "fired pazerschrek rounds and pooped anti tank mines". Or at least that was what I was told, I was busy competing in FPS games (TF2 mainly) and never got into the RTS genre.
I always thought it was some juvenile programmers who put that into the game but perhaps it was based on some hair-brained last ditch Nazi idea. (or it could be a silly staged photo, or heaven forbid, a photoshop)
found the game.
http://companyofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Eselschreck
I had had a Cuban Dive Master on a week dive holiday in the Jardines de la Reina a few yrs back; tough as nails he was. He too had been to Angola...maybe you,ve met
All kidding aside, that place, like the Congo etal, has a mythical ring to it.
If you're inclined to share more I am sure I would not be the only interested party.
Think I'm gonna go watch the Wild Geese...again
All kidding aside, that place, like the Congo etal, has a mythical ring to it.
If you're inclined to share more I am sure I would not be the only interested party.
Think I'm gonna go watch the Wild Geese...again
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I had had a Cuban Dive Master on a week dive holiday in the Jardines de la Reina a few trs back; tough as nails he was. He too had been to Angola...maybe you,ve met
All kidding aside, that place, like the Congo etal, has a mytyhical ring to it.
If you're inclined to share more I am sure I would not be the only interested party.
Think I'm gonna go watch the Wild Geese...again
There isn't a lot to share. I spent most of my time, along with a couple of hundred Matabele's with their families, that had been in the Army of the Republic of Angola. I got there late, just as it was falling apart. The Angolan nationals were gathering up everything they could cram into their suitcases and leaving with most of the military personal that were white. A few farmers that considered themselves Angolan rather than Portuguese, stayed behind and gathered up everything they could to stem the tide.
Kind of a strange fight at first. The defenders left, in a hurry, before the Communists even realized there was an actual uprising of the peasants.
It took a couple of months for them to send real aid and combatants, but when they did come, they came in the form of Russian advisors, Chinese medical specialists and advisors as well as Cuban troops. They were all tough. They were all away from home and did everything they thought was necessary to survive. No one tied their hands behind their backs like happens to our troops now. IMHO, it saved a lot of their lives.
One thing to get straight. Trained troops can be surprised, poorly deployed or wasted by their commanding officers through inexperience or plain stupidity and even pure cruelty. In the end, trained, well disciplined troops have the advantage. Their KIA ratios are about 1-10. I'm not talking about ambushes here. Those can go either way, no matter how well prepared. Disciplined troops don't panic in the same manner and stick together to protect each other. They are usually well supported with ammo, meds, food and get out of the boonies on regular occasions for RRR.
The Cubans I ran into there, were like foreign troops anywhere. Some were educated, some were dumb as posts, some were terrified of everything and some were fearless. All of them were trained to some extent, heavily socially indoctrinated and all believed they were there as liberators.
They came with all sorts of obsolete Soviet and Western weapons. The Soviet pilots flew the Hind helicopters, air transport and spotter aircraft. I only saw one fighter in the air and it was about 500 feet up and moving fast. The Soviets, weren't overly generous with the equipment they gave the Angolans. I saw Canadian made FNC1s, likely a gift from Pierre Trudeau to Castro, Belgian FNs and of course SKSs and AK47s. They had RPGs RPDs and some 1919 Browning machine guns mounted on the old T33/54 tanks they were supplied with. The T33/54s also had other designations. These came from the newer engines they had been retrofitted with. The tanks were made during the mid 1930s and had somehow made it through WWII and maybe even Korea. They were perfect for the situation there. Their Christy suspension was ideal for the terrain. There was nothing, other than a few ground troops that had anything to take them out. Artillery was non existent. I didn't run into anything that was working anyway. The Portuguese nationals destroyed everything they couldn't take out with them.
Milsurp enthusiasts would go wild over what is still in service and hidden away in Africa. Everything you can imagine as far as small arms go. Some of it so old they require black powder cartridges. Everything that goes bang that their donators or previous invaders left behind or they could acquire.
The South African government sent in tons of ammo, arms and supplies to the farmer militias. UNITA and the FNLA were constantly at each other and basically shot at anything that moved, friend or foe. Mostly scared and disorganized.
It was a great big mess. A bloody awful mess. Now, it's a big sh-t hole where everyone struggles to survive, child soldiers are the game of the day and it largely goes unnoticed.
Funny, back in the eighties, the Liberal government in Canada, decided they were going to build a French Immersion University there. They sent or spent $25 million dollars on it. A rather small, concrete building is all there was to show for it and maybe some textbooks. AFAIK, none were ever issued, no teachers were hired and no students crossed the thresholds. The only time I heard French spoken there was in a small village that was turned into a field hospital and was being run by a French mercenary turned priest/medic. Darn good man, he and the villagers were declared untouchable by all sides. He didn't care who you fought with, if you were injured or hungry, he took care of you until you were well enough to leave. You had to get there to get the treatment. His people didn't have resources to come looking.
These African nations don't change one bit, no matter who comes in to help them. Same goes for the Middle East. They just change out their oppressors and masters on a regular basis. Sometimes, like South Africa, they change their white masters for black masters. Some things have obviously gotten better there but the basic constitution and laws are roughly the same and it is just same ole, same ole for the people they promised to make changes for. They still live in poverty, they still don't own land and they still get shot at when they go on a legal strike.
In the end, it's all about the money and how it is going to be distributed, religion is just a tool they use when needed.
I am a bit confused though. Mandela, a rich and privileged man in his youth, becomes a terrorist, goes to Moscow for training. He isn't overly successful and ends up in prison for many years. His first wife carries on the struggle with a bloody passion. Literally hundreds of thousands of people died in that conflict. Many in the most cruel and brutal ways. Can you say African neck tie??? He is declared a hero after the fight is over. Many South Afrkaaners lose their land or just give it up and leave. Mandela is still a hero, even though the land goes to a few black bureaucrats and the poor are booted off the properties.
In Cuba on the other hand, Castro, a man of privilege as well, creates and wins a successful revolution with the aid of the Soviets and Chinese, turns the land over to the peasants to work and at least earn a subsistence living. If it weren't for the embargoes, Cuba would be a very successful example of revolution and post revolutionary government. Lots of schools, everyone that wants to go to school is encouraged and the medical system is second to none in the entire world. The system is open to anyone that can get to it, Cuban or not. In some cases, like joint surgery there will be a charge, less than a third of what similar operations would cost here and done by world renowned specialists.
Castro is considered to be a villain by the Western powers. Why. He changed the Cuban constitution, changed the basic Cuban laws and threw out the oppressors. The lot of the average Cuban is better now than it ever has been and became better the day the revolution ended.
I seem to be missing something here. I think it has a lot to do with the IMF??
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Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
VERY interesting stuff, Bearhunter. Thanks very much for that.
im interested to hear your thoughts on rhodesia/zimbabwae if youre willing to share, bearhunter, and also what kind of stuff you were doing, what equipment you used/carried, and any stories youre willing to share with us
We tried to get out through Rhodesia but they were ready to arrest us if we crossed their border. I met Robert Mugabe once. The man is not all there. His hero was Papa Joe as he called him. Afraid of his own shadow and surrounded by guards. Cruelty is a lifestyle with him. Absolutely no compassion between his ears. Very much a product of his Soviet teachers.
When Rhodesia was allowed to fall, it was a black day for the southern half of Africa. Rhodesia was and still could be the bread basket of Africa. Now, the farms are either abandoned or produce about 10% at best of what they were capable of in the past. The white farmers were thrown out and the land was turned over to the black bureaucrats and of course heroes of the state. These people mostly knew little or nothing about farming. The rest is obvious. Rhodesian's treated the black populations much better than the Angolan/Portuguese or South Africans. Yes, there were atrocities and yes, there were some vicious racists on both sides. Unlike South Africa, Rhodesia had a large indigenous population. Good people for the most part. The land was wrested away from them by hook or crook. At first, it was for farmland, then it was for the diamonds and precious metals. This was never forgotten. This led to the insurrections.
Another very real issue in Rhodesia, was that there was work there to be had, when there wasn't any available anywhere else in Africa. The jobless came in the form of whole tribes. All of their belongings on top of their heads or in hand pulled carts or on their backs. It didn't take very long for the resident blacks to start fighting with the new comers. The more they came, the worse things got. Crime was rampant, you had to travel in groups or at the very least armed to the nuts. Even when you had a vehicle, it was foolhardy to ride around on the country roads alone.
Rhodesia was a strange war, there were at least as many blacks in the Rhodesian military and police forces as there were whites. They all had a lot to lose.
Victoria Falls, once a prime vacation spot, with all sorts of services and motels/hotels for tourists was turned into a military base for a while. I hear it is now a vacation spot again. As for the political scene? Be careful not to take a lot of cash with you. Leopards are cowards and don't change their spots, just like Robert Mugabe. When Mugabe finally steps down/dies/gets assassinated, Zimbabwe might just live up to its new name. Somehow, I don't think so. Tribal animosity and discrimination is the byword there and like South Africa it may just keep on reverting to the past and stay a tribal economy forever.
Look, for the most part these are all good people. They live by their wits because there are no social services of any sort. You pay as you play and die when you can't. Desperation is the name of the game. The governments are corrupt to the core and send very much of the money they steal or extort out of their populations into foreign accounts. These governments take all of the cream then the milk left over is distributed according to freshness. The poor at the bottom of the social ladder have to fight for the sour dribbles that are grudgingly allowed to trickle down.
I haven't been back since I left. I'm curious as to how much if anything has changed. From some old friends that have been back, the story is pretty much the same. There is absolutely no incentive to make their lots better. If they start getting to successful, they end up dead or in jail on some trumped up account.
I stand corrected, or better educated on the PIAT, thanks!
As for Africa, the UN should have just paid the British to keep running it, and take over the bits they didn't!
Reminds me of the article in Saturday Night years ago about the UK/CF training team in Sierra Leone. When the "minister of defence" met of the OC of the training team, almost the first thing he said was "we want to rejoin the Empire!"
China will run Africa next.
As for Africa, the UN should have just paid the British to keep running it, and take over the bits they didn't!
Reminds me of the article in Saturday Night years ago about the UK/CF training team in Sierra Leone. When the "minister of defence" met of the OC of the training team, almost the first thing he said was "we want to rejoin the Empire!"
China will run Africa next.
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equipment
Equipment was what was at hand, resupply was not an option. There were deserted depots with all sorts of stuff stacked up in them. Mostly we would load as much as we could carry on our backs or in scavenged vehicles. Fuel/food and clean water were the orders of the day. We scavenged for everything. We robbed the dead of their weapons and ammo.
We burned the warehouses when we left because we didn't want what they contained used against us.
This is where I grew to dislike the FN Fal. It was accurate with good ammo, unreliable with much of what was available and unreliable when dirty as they usually were under stressful field conditions. The same thing can be said about the CZ858s we ran across. All sorts and calibers of Mausers, which were popular and reliable, even with rusty, shot out bores. They could be rinsed out in water and were ready to go. This is very important. Much more important than a full auto weapon that you had no real training in how to maintain and use effectively. Not only that, the ammo lasted longer and usually went in the direction it was pointed, rather than into the air and to the left in a twenty round burst.
At the end, everyone had an AK or SKS other than a few that preferred bolt actions. Pistols and submachine guns were few and far between. The main reason for that was they were heavy and the weight would be much better utilized carrying ammo for the rifles or food/water.
Like I said before, after WWII, Africa was awash with everything left over from WWII. Then, it became a dumping ground for more. You name it and it was there. Everything from brand new Vickers Machine Guns in their crates with 8x57 barrels and no ammo in belts or belts for the guns to Lewis Guns in every condition imaginable. Every type of bolt action ever used was there, along with a hodge podge of everything else. Much of it was unusable because of lack of ammo.
You used what you could get supplies for. There was no such thing as field repair or turning an unreliable weapon into a field depot. Malfunctions were the kiss of death and the weapon doing it was tossed at first opportunity to be replaced.
Not much more to tell. I'm sure not much has changed, other than a lot of the weapons we left behind were burned in their crates or in the buildings they were being stored in.
This is life the hard way. You either did it by taking every advantage of every situation and taking the same away from those that weren't part of your entourage or it was used on you and yours.
Equipment was what was at hand, resupply was not an option. There were deserted depots with all sorts of stuff stacked up in them. Mostly we would load as much as we could carry on our backs or in scavenged vehicles. Fuel/food and clean water were the orders of the day. We scavenged for everything. We robbed the dead of their weapons and ammo.
We burned the warehouses when we left because we didn't want what they contained used against us.
This is where I grew to dislike the FN Fal. It was accurate with good ammo, unreliable with much of what was available and unreliable when dirty as they usually were under stressful field conditions. The same thing can be said about the CZ858s we ran across. All sorts and calibers of Mausers, which were popular and reliable, even with rusty, shot out bores. They could be rinsed out in water and were ready to go. This is very important. Much more important than a full auto weapon that you had no real training in how to maintain and use effectively. Not only that, the ammo lasted longer and usually went in the direction it was pointed, rather than into the air and to the left in a twenty round burst.
At the end, everyone had an AK or SKS other than a few that preferred bolt actions. Pistols and submachine guns were few and far between. The main reason for that was they were heavy and the weight would be much better utilized carrying ammo for the rifles or food/water.
Like I said before, after WWII, Africa was awash with everything left over from WWII. Then, it became a dumping ground for more. You name it and it was there. Everything from brand new Vickers Machine Guns in their crates with 8x57 barrels and no ammo in belts or belts for the guns to Lewis Guns in every condition imaginable. Every type of bolt action ever used was there, along with a hodge podge of everything else. Much of it was unusable because of lack of ammo.
You used what you could get supplies for. There was no such thing as field repair or turning an unreliable weapon into a field depot. Malfunctions were the kiss of death and the weapon doing it was tossed at first opportunity to be replaced.
Not much more to tell. I'm sure not much has changed, other than a lot of the weapons we left behind were burned in their crates or in the buildings they were being stored in.
This is life the hard way. You either did it by taking every advantage of every situation and taking the same away from those that weren't part of your entourage or it was used on you and yours.
