I take it you have never owned one? They are amazing and much better than many of the new rifles on the market now.
Bad News for Swiss Arms
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I guess they sent the jobs to the USA. No support for 1st world arms production especially not in Europe. Someone could just buy up all these dies and equipment and pump out a few thousand of these every few years, you could even subcontract out parts. Maybe the Swiss government will tenure a new contract for a better assault rifle and drive money back into peacekeeping and self defense.
Kampfhamster
CGN frequent flyer
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That's exactly what's going to happen. From what I've heard the downsizing wasn't a swiss decision, but an american one.
No offence to the Swiss lovers. But that rifle is not worth $4000. Hell my xcr is not worth $2500. But realistically the two guns don't have a whole lot of difference between them and one is $1500 less. Yes ok Swiss is "more accurrate", but lets be honest my $700 hunting rifle is far more accurate then both of these. You don't buy a black rifle for its phenomenal accuracy. You buy it to shoot s$&@ at the range. Maybe predator hunting. It's cool looking and fun to rapid fire. Swiss arms IMO is dreaming with their prices. They think they can sell chocolate for $40 a pack, so guns should be $4000 a gun.
And tv 200 rifles is not $800,000 for the company. That's the retail value. They need to be sold to us for retail, stores at whole sale and distributor from manufacturer. They more likely sell the guns at $2500 per gun to manufacturer. Now the gun isn't born on the branches of a tree. It has parts etc that all have costs. I'd be shocked to know that this companies gross profits are anymore than $750 to $1000 a gun.
What should they cost then ? People don't work for nothing unless it's from china.... Then even it's not nothing ..... You pay for craftsmanship and quality controlled products. Comparing a hunting rifle to a mill spec semi is not a comparison. If we could get nr ar 15 rifles I'd agree with your xcr statement. Mind you it would still be 1500-1700 fair priced it's all metal and quality milled..... Even at that price they would not be worth it to make no profit to be made because of low sales volume compared to let's say an ar
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I'm sorry are we not talking about the economical downfall of a company? So me saying this is because the rifle is overpriced? And apparently the whole world agrees as this report has come up and the company is downsizing. I don't get how that's trolling?
Nick I'm not sure what your saying. You say what should we pay, but then you say if AR15 were non restricted then $1500 would be fair. So are you saying Swiss arms are 3-4 times better then any AR?
My comparison to hunting rifles was the typical "accuracy" arguement for Swiss arms. I realize our semis are worth more then a bolt action. But that all being said there are restricted AR style rifles that shoot faster, more accurate, more reliable and American made for $1000. So as I said its overpriced. Believe me if we did not have restrictions on AR, the xcr would be $1500 as well. They added an additional $1000 just cause they can in Canada. The Swiss arms is $4000 everywhere. And apparently I, not the only one who thinks its not worth that.
Nick I'm not sure what your saying. You say what should we pay, but then you say if AR15 were non restricted then $1500 would be fair. So are you saying Swiss arms are 3-4 times better then any AR?
My comparison to hunting rifles was the typical "accuracy" arguement for Swiss arms. I realize our semis are worth more then a bolt action. But that all being said there are restricted AR style rifles that shoot faster, more accurate, more reliable and American made for $1000. So as I said its overpriced. Believe me if we did not have restrictions on AR, the xcr would be $1500 as well. They added an additional $1000 just cause they can in Canada. The Swiss arms is $4000 everywhere. And apparently I, not the only one who thinks its not worth that.
winnipegger
CGN frequent flyer
Not a whole lot different between xcr and Swiss arms? This cant be a serious claim, or you have never held/fired a swiss...
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- Fleeing the Regime
Unfortunately, this isn't the first time this has happened...
I had the good luck last summer to fire a late 1950s era Sig P210 in MINT condition. This was by FAR the highest quality, most accurate, smoothest shooting pistol I have ever laid my eyes or my grubby mitts on. The proud owner showed me how easily the pistol was disassembled... After engaging the TD lever, he simply tilted the muzzle of the gun down about 20 degrees and the whole slide (which rides inside the frame, BTW), rolled forward as if it was on bearings - unbelievable to see.
Keep in mind that this pistol was standard issue to the Swiss Military from 1949 - 1975 at which point, I've been given to understand, that even the Swiss government could longer justify their purchase due to the high production costs. Imagine an entire modern army these days equipped with custom, match-grade pistols? The Swiss military may certainly be the exception, but as aquaintances of mine in both the CF and U.S. Army say, "Always know that your (fill in the blank) was manufactured by the lowest bidder." To my knowledge, the Danish Military are the only ones left using the pistols (nearly 60 years and counting) but will be replacing them with H&K USPs which will cost less than half as much. Subsequently, the government of Kazakhstan has been buying up many "hand-me-downs".
So to the point. There seems to be times where a company can almost out-do itself by producing goods of such high-quality that they no longer appeal to the masses due to high costs of production and associated QC. This may well have been the case with Swiss Arms. If there happens to be a misstep somewhere along the way as far as managing the business itself, this will of course, only make things worse.
Think of it this way...
You have more books than you have space and need a new bookshelf. You can go to Wal-Mart and get some cheap, pressboard unit stamped out on a machine run by a twelve-year old Chinese girl that will do the job for $70, or you can go and spend $700 for one made by hand out of solid hardwood. Is the hardwood bookshelf better "quality"? Of course it is. Will it hold your books "better"? Uhhh, depends how you look at it, but not really... For what you really need it to do, is it 1000% / 10x / $630 better? Well....
There are, and will always be those people who have the means and will demand a solid hardwood bookshelf, but joe-blo is just gonna head down to his local CT. If there is still enough demand for custom furniture, the companies producing it will do so at an increasingly higher cost until the cost of employing professional craftsmen and keeping the lights on outweighs the demand. Eventually they lay off half their workforce, then half again, then half again...
My wife is Swiss and during a trip back to the old country a couple years ago I was astonished to discover that Swiss watches are not made by Swiss nationals, but by immigrants new to the country looking for a first job and willing to work on the cheap. Like anywhere and everywhere, foreign labour seems to be the quickest and easiest solution to cutting production costs.
I discovered the same this while living back in Japan several years ago. Get this - Japanese cars manufactured in country are built by BRAZILIANS!!! I figured this out right away during my first Japanese class when I couldn't understand what language all the other Gaijiin were using amongst themselves to help each other out. Apparently no normal Japanese citizen could afford to live on the wages offered on the floor of the Tahara-town Toyota plant. Of course, all the lower-income neighbourhoods are right around there.
I guess the point is that there are way more Chevys on the road than Ferraris. Which car is better in your mind, I suppose, depends firstly on what you need it for, but you get my drift. I haven't seen the books, but I'm assuming that both are profitable companies. Who produces and sells more cars and has the larger workforce? GM. But, "You want a Ferrari? Sure, we can get you one, but it'll cost ya!"
As a very proud SA owner I would love see the production of these rifles continue, but also get the situation the company is in. "It's not personal, it's just business.", as they say? Failing that, I would hold out hope that someone else will pick up the manufacturing of rifles and parts, which may not be a bad thing if it's done at a cheaper cost. Not sure how eager the company would be to do this, however, and I suppose it could go either way. The real price/value in this, I guess, will become more as we compare Norinco NP22s to P226s and SAN CGs to FAMAEs.
The P210 never was sold down the river and in recent years was brought back into limited production, but, "it'll cost ya..." This could be another possibility for CGs and PE90s in the coming years. This will be watched with great interest.
In the meantime I think I'll hop in my Honda Accord and head down to grab a Timmy's coffee from that friendly Filipino fella that works there - super nice guy.
I had the good luck last summer to fire a late 1950s era Sig P210 in MINT condition. This was by FAR the highest quality, most accurate, smoothest shooting pistol I have ever laid my eyes or my grubby mitts on. The proud owner showed me how easily the pistol was disassembled... After engaging the TD lever, he simply tilted the muzzle of the gun down about 20 degrees and the whole slide (which rides inside the frame, BTW), rolled forward as if it was on bearings - unbelievable to see.
Keep in mind that this pistol was standard issue to the Swiss Military from 1949 - 1975 at which point, I've been given to understand, that even the Swiss government could longer justify their purchase due to the high production costs. Imagine an entire modern army these days equipped with custom, match-grade pistols? The Swiss military may certainly be the exception, but as aquaintances of mine in both the CF and U.S. Army say, "Always know that your (fill in the blank) was manufactured by the lowest bidder." To my knowledge, the Danish Military are the only ones left using the pistols (nearly 60 years and counting) but will be replacing them with H&K USPs which will cost less than half as much. Subsequently, the government of Kazakhstan has been buying up many "hand-me-downs".
So to the point. There seems to be times where a company can almost out-do itself by producing goods of such high-quality that they no longer appeal to the masses due to high costs of production and associated QC. This may well have been the case with Swiss Arms. If there happens to be a misstep somewhere along the way as far as managing the business itself, this will of course, only make things worse.
Think of it this way...
You have more books than you have space and need a new bookshelf. You can go to Wal-Mart and get some cheap, pressboard unit stamped out on a machine run by a twelve-year old Chinese girl that will do the job for $70, or you can go and spend $700 for one made by hand out of solid hardwood. Is the hardwood bookshelf better "quality"? Of course it is. Will it hold your books "better"? Uhhh, depends how you look at it, but not really... For what you really need it to do, is it 1000% / 10x / $630 better? Well....
There are, and will always be those people who have the means and will demand a solid hardwood bookshelf, but joe-blo is just gonna head down to his local CT. If there is still enough demand for custom furniture, the companies producing it will do so at an increasingly higher cost until the cost of employing professional craftsmen and keeping the lights on outweighs the demand. Eventually they lay off half their workforce, then half again, then half again...
My wife is Swiss and during a trip back to the old country a couple years ago I was astonished to discover that Swiss watches are not made by Swiss nationals, but by immigrants new to the country looking for a first job and willing to work on the cheap. Like anywhere and everywhere, foreign labour seems to be the quickest and easiest solution to cutting production costs.
I discovered the same this while living back in Japan several years ago. Get this - Japanese cars manufactured in country are built by BRAZILIANS!!! I figured this out right away during my first Japanese class when I couldn't understand what language all the other Gaijiin were using amongst themselves to help each other out. Apparently no normal Japanese citizen could afford to live on the wages offered on the floor of the Tahara-town Toyota plant. Of course, all the lower-income neighbourhoods are right around there.
I guess the point is that there are way more Chevys on the road than Ferraris. Which car is better in your mind, I suppose, depends firstly on what you need it for, but you get my drift. I haven't seen the books, but I'm assuming that both are profitable companies. Who produces and sells more cars and has the larger workforce? GM. But, "You want a Ferrari? Sure, we can get you one, but it'll cost ya!"
As a very proud SA owner I would love see the production of these rifles continue, but also get the situation the company is in. "It's not personal, it's just business.", as they say? Failing that, I would hold out hope that someone else will pick up the manufacturing of rifles and parts, which may not be a bad thing if it's done at a cheaper cost. Not sure how eager the company would be to do this, however, and I suppose it could go either way. The real price/value in this, I guess, will become more as we compare Norinco NP22s to P226s and SAN CGs to FAMAEs.
The P210 never was sold down the river and in recent years was brought back into limited production, but, "it'll cost ya..." This could be another possibility for CGs and PE90s in the coming years. This will be watched with great interest.
In the meantime I think I'll hop in my Honda Accord and head down to grab a Timmy's coffee from that friendly Filipino fella that works there - super nice guy.
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