Runningfool
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
Huh? Sorry to pick on a chapter in your virtual novel there but after reading that, I can't take the rest of what you typed seriously.
Bad News for Swiss Arms
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Huh? Sorry to pick on a chapter in your virtual novel there but after reading that, I can't take the rest of what you typed seriously.
When the BS with the RCMP and the Swiss Arms started I think it was TSE that mentioned 1200 have been imported since they started coming into the country 12 or 13 years ago.
Like I said earlier, if we Canadians weren't so cheap there might be 5000-10000 of these out there and the RCMP would worry about p!ssing off a bunch of people. As it is now there are so few of them out there and they know that the only people that will make a real stink about it are the current owners and everyone else will sit in the shadows and hope they are satisfied with just the SA.
I don't think the SA is worth $3000+ but I did own one to see what all the hype was about, it didn't live up to my expectations but it was a very well built and beautifully machined rifle. $2500+ is just the price we pay in Canada for a quality non restricted rifle and the Swiss is definitely a nicer and better built rifle than an XCR. I do think the SA is worth $500 more than an XCR but to me both are overpriced. Knock $500 off the price of both and we are getting close in my opinion.
boss351cleveland
CGN frequent flyer
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- Down by the river
Chago;9718241' said:
100% Bullshat' talking out ur ass .. The trigger on the Swiss is far beyond any $1000 AR . $1000 ARs more reliable ?? LOL really .. The Swiss Arms is really just a over built AK47 by design , to think any AR is more reliable is retarded .. Steel will outlast aluminum always .. I have a Swiss with a little over 10000 rounds without one hicup , just look how far the damn thing ejects ! like 30 feet .. Most reliable Semi i have ever owned by far.. I also have a BCM ,Colt and LMT ARs in the safe all with at least a couple FTE .. Only advantages a AR will have over the Swiss is weight , balance and price , thats it ...
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Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Vancouver Island
Lighter, better balance, cost 66-75% less, easier to work on and better aftermarket. With only those few positives why would anyone bother with the AR family?
red magnum
CGN Regular
- Location
- Sundre, Alberta
I have, and sold it a month later.
Just cause they have a hefty price tag doesn't mean it's actually worth that much. It's a shame to see them close their doors tho.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Just cause they have a hefty price tag doesn't mean it's actually worth that much. It's a shame to see them close their doors tho.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
- Location
- West Quebec
That's what I was thinking as well
- Location
- Fleeing the Regime
Yeah, I know - seriously, man. There's apparently a long history of trade between Japan and Brazil and a lot of them have dual citizenship. They go to Japan for a few years living on the cheap, saving as much cash as they can and then go home to live quite well in Brazil. No different than folks working in Fort Mac for 10-15 years then heading back to the Rock where you can buy a house for, oh... about 1/4 as much cash. Same idea. There are, of course Japanese people working in the plants, they just tend to be more in managerial and engineering positions. The Brazilians are the ones operating the machines and doing all the heavy lifting.
I don't know why this seems to crazy to you? Its very common throughout the world. You live in SW Ontario. Have any large nurseries around you? Have a peak at the labour force. Probably 1 Canadian for every 10 Mexican, Haitian, Jamaican. And no not immigrants from their. Seasonal workers that do not need to be paid based on Canadian minimum wage rules. Call Sheridan Nurseries, one of Canada's largest nursery companies. They own over 5000 acres around my place. Employ maybe 50 Canadians in the store fronts and main office. Then they employ hundreds more who they shack up in houses and everything from the Caribbean. Perfectly legal and perfectly common all over the world. I have read what siggy mentioned as well. Not in auto industry but in the tech world. Where factories are filled with South American workers who are on 1 year visas. The Japanese use it as a revolving door. Because everyone is constantly new no need for pensions, benefits etc. Just 1 year contracts and go back.
Boss351 - I am not bashing the SA. But your not going to tell me because the trigger its 4x the cost? There are many steel guns out there. And I will say again, I am clearly not talking out of my ass. Obviously! because it seems the entire world agrees with me and has not bought it. And to say whoever doesn't have one can't afford one is laughable. I have a large collection of guns, many members on here have guns valued far more then a SA, and people throughout the world have guns that are far more valuable then a SA. And clearly no one is buying them as the company is having serious financial issues. IMO they are not expensive because they are so "special". They are expensive because the management of the company is spending outrageous money paying for Swiss wages (one of europes highest) and the cost of doing business is outrageous. Now if your going to say a Swiss factory worker puts together a gun any better then a factory worker in any country I'm going to laugh. Factory worker does as he is told by management. Mercedez, and BMW both are made in Mexico for us North Americans. Both of them are still known as the "German Engineering and Quality". If Swiss Arms managed the costs of workers and materials better, these rifles could be sold for $2500 all day long. If you choose to believe these rifles need to be $4000 due to them using very magical steel parts and are put together by elves using magic fairy dust. Your delusional, sorry. And yes I agree there are parts of this gun better than a XCR, I made that clear in my first post. But I did say that gun is overpriced too only because its NR. Both these guns could be sold at much less where the companies are making comparable margins to any other industry.
Oh and one more thing I forgot to mention. I was recently in Florida and went to a gun show. To my amazement, I spoke to about 20 different vendors, manufacturers etc who specialize in AR and other black rifles. Of our NR big 3 SA, XCR and Tavor. Everyone know a Tavor, absolutely not one of the heard of Swiss Arms. And what really surprised me since its made in the US. The XCR I think one guy said he heard of it, but has never seen one. So it goes to show you about these two companies. If they had a larger market buying like the US. They would need to be more competitive. But both know they could never be competitive with there pricing. You can't tell me these companies don't market to Americans because Americans just love their "cheap" guns. They don't market because they know there money is better spent advertising in a country that does not have the competition like America has. Where companies are forced to be competitive. I'm just using business sense and not a love for a gun. I love my XCR and spent almost $3000 for it. Since have spent another $1000 on scope and accessories. Believe me I'm a spender as well. But I know I was paying opportunity cost, but I didn't care because I wanted a cool gun that I could shoot on my farm and neighbouring farms. And if a report came out tomorrow about Robertson Arms releasing half its staff, I would say the exact same thing I did about SA. Even though I own one and love it dearly.
Runningfool
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
It seems crazy because the notion of Toyota's factory floor having no "normal Japanese citizens" and sweeping statements like "Japanese cars manufactured in country are built by BRAZILIANS" is kinda crazy. I've no doubt that there are south americans working in japan, but instead of reading about it on the internets, talk to people who are in those Toyota factories on a regular basis and you will see what I mean.
Trying to make an analogy between the seasonal agricultural industry in Ontario and the automotive industry in Japan is kind of like comparing apples to oranges.
A few things you should know:
Not many Americans have heard of it because the SIG 55X series was banned from import into the US by Billy Clinton along with many other European guns back in 1994. This is also the reason you cannot attend a US shooting competition with your Swiss Arms. Back then the company was known as SIG, whose name was later changed to Swiss Arms so of course most have never heard of it.
After 1994 any foreign designed firearms had to have a certain number of their components including receivers manufactured in America, that' why they have companies that make HK 91's, DSA Inc makes FAL's, others make AK47's all US made receivers.
SIG never allowed its rifles to be copied in this manner. It was not until a few years ago that Sig Sauer USA started making the 556, which is a cheaper simplified copy of the 550 but is nowhere near the same quality. A real genuine SIG 550 goes for 15,000 to 20,000 dollars in the states because it is a collectors item that is generally unobtanium.
Swiss Arms rifles are very finely crafted and can withstand alot of punishment due to this anal retentive method of manufacturing. Here is the acceptance test procedure these rifles must pass in detail: http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/
They are not better than a high quality AR or HK rifle but they are ONE of the best rifles made. They are an exotic rifle made by one small company, and exotic things that are handmade cost money, this is what most people don't get. An Omega luxury watch does not tell time any better than any other quality watch, but it is exotic, not found at every store, finely made and costs major coin.
The same can be said about the HK Mr223, is it worth over 4000 dollars? is it better than a Knights AR? A DD AR? That is for the consumer to decide. Those with money will say sure, those without will sigh and say no. Others still will hate on it just because they cannot afford the expensive rifles like MR's SA's DTA's Accuracy Internationals, ect. I had one guy call my AI rifle a stupid waste of money and that his Remmy 700 was just as good. He is entitled to his opinion, I'll keep my AI.
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J996 I too own a AI and totally hear what you are saying. But sorry IMO a AI vs Remmy build, is a huge leap in comparison to a SA vs a XCR, Tavor, many AR brands etc. Just my two cents. And AI have huge price tags although are employed world wide in military use. Being a "exotic" "luxury" never stopped the worlds armies from buying them. Can we say the same for the SA? To be honest I don't know of any armies using it? I may be wrong?
Either way the SA is a nice gun. Nothing to complain about it. My entire rant though is in this thread because the company is having financial issues. I'm juts giving my two cents as to why. I spent more than double on my AI then what a SA is worth. Again IMO the difference was justifiable compared to all others on the market. Yes I could have bought a Remington and built it. But to be honest some of those guys have spent more then I did if not the same for their builds. For me it was, this comes out of box ready to shoot. I don't have local gunsmiths nor did I want to wait over a year for each part and each parts installation.
Anyways all the best to SA and I hope they can correct their financial issues. Things are looking grim considering RCMP having a jolly old time creating rumours just to effect sales.
Sounds good, I mainly wanted to explain why most Yanks don't know who or what Swiss Arms is and threw to AI In as a cost example. To answer your question SIG's are used by a number of Special Forces and Police around the world including the french army, FBI, DEA and the Lethbridge Police lmao!
Argentina GEOF, Federal Police Grupo de Especial de Seguridad, Policia de Mendoza SG 553 SOW SG 556
Brazil Brazilian Federal Police, Brazilian Air Force PARA-SAR SG 550 SG 551
Canada Lethbridge Regional Police Service SIG 553 CN Police
Finland Helsinki Police Department, Karhu Team SG 552
France French Army SG 551 SG 551 LB National Gendarmerie Intervention Group (GIGN) of the National Gendarmerie SG 553 SOW
Germany GSG 9 of the German Federal Police SIG 553 Spezialeinsatzkommando groups of some Landespolizei
India National Security Guard SG 551
Indonesia Komando Pasukan Khusus (Kopassus) special forces group of the Indonesian Army SG 550SG 552
Komando Pasukan Katak (Kopaska) tactical diver group of the Indonesian Navy
Macau Grupo de Operações Especiais (Macau) SG 552
Malaysia Pasukan Khas Udara (PASKAU) Counter-Terrorism Forces of the Royal Malaysian Air Force SG 553 SG 553 SB
Special Task And Rescue (STAR) Maritime Counter-Terrorism Forces of the Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency
Malta Armed Forces of Malta SG 550
Netherlands Caribbean Coastguard SG 552
Poland Grupa Reagowania Operacyjno-Manewrowego special forces of the Polish Army
Serbia Specijalna Antiteroristicka Jedinica ("Special Antiterrorist Unit") of the Serbian Police SIG SG 552
Slovakia Útvar Osobitného Určenia ("special assignments unit") of the Slovak Police SG 551 SWAT
South Korea Special Sea Attack Team (SSAT) of the Korea Coast Guard
Spain Grupo Especial de Operaciones of the Spanish National Police SG 551 SWATSG 552
Switzerland Swiss Armed Forces SG 550SG 552 SG 553
Turkey Karşı Atak Timi, special forces of the General Directorate of Security.
Tunisia Groupe d'Intervention Présidentielle, special forces of the Presidential Guard. SG 552
United States Drug Enforcement Administration SG 551 Federal Bureau of Investigation
Argentina GEOF, Federal Police Grupo de Especial de Seguridad, Policia de Mendoza SG 553 SOW SG 556
Brazil Brazilian Federal Police, Brazilian Air Force PARA-SAR SG 550 SG 551
Canada Lethbridge Regional Police Service SIG 553 CN Police
Finland Helsinki Police Department, Karhu Team SG 552
France French Army SG 551 SG 551 LB National Gendarmerie Intervention Group (GIGN) of the National Gendarmerie SG 553 SOW
Germany GSG 9 of the German Federal Police SIG 553 Spezialeinsatzkommando groups of some Landespolizei
India National Security Guard SG 551
Indonesia Komando Pasukan Khusus (Kopassus) special forces group of the Indonesian Army SG 550SG 552
Komando Pasukan Katak (Kopaska) tactical diver group of the Indonesian Navy
Macau Grupo de Operações Especiais (Macau) SG 552
Malaysia Pasukan Khas Udara (PASKAU) Counter-Terrorism Forces of the Royal Malaysian Air Force SG 553 SG 553 SB
Special Task And Rescue (STAR) Maritime Counter-Terrorism Forces of the Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency
Malta Armed Forces of Malta SG 550
Netherlands Caribbean Coastguard SG 552
Poland Grupa Reagowania Operacyjno-Manewrowego special forces of the Polish Army
Serbia Specijalna Antiteroristicka Jedinica ("Special Antiterrorist Unit") of the Serbian Police SIG SG 552
Slovakia Útvar Osobitného Určenia ("special assignments unit") of the Slovak Police SG 551 SWAT
South Korea Special Sea Attack Team (SSAT) of the Korea Coast Guard
Spain Grupo Especial de Operaciones of the Spanish National Police SG 551 SWATSG 552
Switzerland Swiss Armed Forces SG 550SG 552 SG 553
Turkey Karşı Atak Timi, special forces of the General Directorate of Security.
Tunisia Groupe d'Intervention Présidentielle, special forces of the Presidential Guard. SG 552
United States Drug Enforcement Administration SG 551 Federal Bureau of Investigation
J996,
Your list is far from complete, many more not mentioned world wide. India also bought a few hundred. Many more SWAT / ERT units in Europe as well.
Strong sales, just very small sales. Hard to make money and stay in business without the big Government Contract. I read a while back that the Portuguese trials were won hands down by the SG550,
only to be rejected due to cost.
Rich
Your list is far from complete, many more not mentioned world wide. India also bought a few hundred. Many more SWAT / ERT units in Europe as well.
Strong sales, just very small sales. Hard to make money and stay in business without the big Government Contract. I read a while back that the Portuguese trials were won hands down by the SG550,
only to be rejected due to cost.
Rich
Donny Fenn1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Kootenays
So will the machinery be for sale soon?
Group buy anyone?
Group buy anyone?
Missing are a few more from the oil rich Gulf states plus the Vatican. Many are deligated to very special units that take care of VIP/Royalty protection details, thus are not open knowledge. Which also tells you if the King has coin, they issue them the best Swiss watches and arms.
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