Donny Fenn1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Kootenays
purple. that may be the best written on CGN ever.
Picture of the day
- Thread starter jwhc
- Start date
Agreed. The sheer lack of glory of the dead in war is one of the most striking aspects of the war memorial in general. I was at the National Memorial in Ottawa in November and it is one of the most beautiful pieces of public art in the country (at least). What struck me most was the irreconcilability of politics and the dead. When you enter the square, you climb a series of low steps where you alight on the grave of the unknown soldier. The fact that his bones rest under that rust-coloured sarcophagus seems to almost scream in protest at the green figures above, marching through that triumphal gate.
It is impossible to reconcile, in my mind anyway, the following: "We won" and "they're dead." One would seem to cancel the other out. Even the Greeks fought with this juxtaposition. In a society that claims to adhere to justice and peace, how is it in any way logical to kill for the same? Obviously there is no answer, other than it is a necessary evil—the curse of self-awareness.
I most certainly agree..
"War is the continuation of state policy by other means". Von Clausewitz
"There will always be wars and rumours of wars." Jesus Christ
"And yes, it's true what they say
of war and war's alarms;
But, oh, that I was young again
and held her in my arms."
Anonymous
War is an inescapable fact of the human condition. I was quite moved by the Airborne Cemetery at Arnhem and similarly moved by a German cemetery I came across in the Arnsberger Wald (Nord-Rhein Westphalen) on their veteran's day.
The memorial book on display said that the soldiers and civilians (Volksturm) buried there died "in the final days of a war already lost." They were first buried where they fell, disinterred and reburied at that location.
Everyone paid a price. We never learn and continue to pay it.
"There will always be wars and rumours of wars." Jesus Christ
"And yes, it's true what they say
of war and war's alarms;
But, oh, that I was young again
and held her in my arms."
Anonymous
War is an inescapable fact of the human condition. I was quite moved by the Airborne Cemetery at Arnhem and similarly moved by a German cemetery I came across in the Arnsberger Wald (Nord-Rhein Westphalen) on their veteran's day.
The memorial book on display said that the soldiers and civilians (Volksturm) buried there died "in the final days of a war already lost." They were first buried where they fell, disinterred and reburied at that location.
Everyone paid a price. We never learn and continue to pay it.
I have visited a few military cemetaries. There is one near Bisley. Always struck by the young age othe dead. What gifts they could have made!
Often an entire aircrew are still togther.
The emotion I feel strongest is that war is such a waste.
Often an entire aircrew are still togther.
The emotion I feel strongest is that war is such a waste.
Actually, the original designer of the Cenotaph might have been rather distressed by your reaction to it and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. You felt the Tomb was like a scream of protest at the figures marching through a triumphal gate above him. The Cenotaph sculpture is actually supposed to represent figures from all branches of Canadian service marching together through the Gate of Death... and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier was, I believe, placed in that location partly because that is where ALL the figures on the Cenotaph are headed...
Oh, and for a picture to add to the discussion, here is a war memorial that is rather different. A large proportion of the Soviet elite forces that fought in Afghanistan came from the Ukraine. After the USSR broke up, here is one of the war memorials constructed in the Ukraine in memory of the dead from the Afghanistan war:
According to a Russian-speaking member on another board I frequent, the words on the globe across which that disembodied hand is moving its paratrooper 'pawn' translate roughly as: "When politicians screw up - the people bleed."
According to a Russian-speaking member on another board I frequent, the words on the globe across which that disembodied hand is moving its paratrooper 'pawn' translate roughly as: "When politicians screw up - the people bleed."
Ah yes, Smedley Butler. Had no apparent issues with all this until after he retired from the USMC - as the most highly decorated Marine to that date and at the rank of major general after losing out in his bid to become Commandant of the Corps.
He then attempted a rather unsuccessful career in politics, failing to be elected as a US Senator in 1932, but made a very good living during the 1930s as a socialist and pacifist public speaker. His success on his lecture circuit was greatly helped by his 1935 bestseller, War As A Racket.
The quote you listed above comes from an article he wrote around the same time for the socialist magazine, Common Sense.
It would have been interesting to see what would have happened to his reputation, popularity and public career had he not died of cancer in June 1940 at the age of 58 - before WW2 and the Cold War.
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
I think this painting fits with our current subject pretty well.
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Yeh, I read the Wikipedia article too!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedly_butlerI don't think you'll find Butler ever described himself as a "socialist" or a "pacifist". He certainly wasn't a pacifist by nature!
You don't have to be a "socialist" or a "pacifist" to see that many wars are indeed "rackets".
Are you seriously suggesting that we pretend the wars and "incidents" that Butler participated in and refers to had something to do with "democracy", "freedom" etc?
Here's Wiki again:
Welcome to Realpolitik. It can be a bit of a shock for idealists.
I wasn't aware of that intention. It certainly makes sense looking at it again.
But the point still remains—that duality of purpose. Democracy exists on the lives of those willing to die for it. Taken further, we can even see a democracy as cannibalistic. It eats it's own young to sustain itself. Shocking thought. But I can't bring myself to make a moral judgment on this. I simply state it as empirical fact.
Yeh, I read the Wikipedia article too!
I don't think you'll find Butler ever described himself as a "socialist" or a "pacifist". He certainly wasn't a pacifist by nature!
You don't have to be a "socialist" or a "pacifist" to see that many wars are indeed "rackets".
Are you seriously suggesting that we pretend the wars and "incidents" that Butler participated in and refers to had something to do with "democracy", "freedom" etc?
Here's Wiki again:
Welcome to Realpolitik. It can be a bit of a shock for idealists.
No, I just find it somewhat more interesting that he was perfectly prepared to spend 33 years of his life serving in all those wars - and not just as a footsoldier but as the commanding officer in some of the later ones - without so much as a murmur of protest. And he only developed this 'conscience' after he retired (because he had failed to become Commandant of the Corps) and when it was a popular attitude of the times (during the Isolationist and Anti-War phase of American popular opinion) and therefore also convenient both for his run at electoral office and for his popularity as a circuit public lecturer...
To be honest, he rather reminds me of some of the British hangmen, such as James Barrie and Albert Pierrepoint, who wrote books and in Barrie's case had a travelling carnival sideshow that decried the evils of capital punishment -- after they had both retired from decades-long careers of being paid per job for hanging hundreds of criminals... and needed a new source of income...
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
Naw that's not the scary part. The scary part is if everyone else lets him do it.
Yeah. The "Thousand Yard Stare", from a man that has seen and endured too much.
Gotta wonder .... did WWII vets suffer as many suicides from PTSD as do current US and Canadian vets? If not, what is the difference?
Gotta wonder .... did WWII vets suffer as many suicides from PTSD as do current US and Canadian vets? If not, what is the difference?
I think this painting fits with our current subject pretty well.
For sure they did. Without a question. Either by their own hands quickly or slowly by the bottle.
- Location
- Leduc County, Alberta
Well, that reminded me of something....
This is an actual video shown in Argentina for Children... Except the subtitles are NOT original, but they are damn close... Prepare yourself for a hilarious 15 minutes!
[youtube]VKkcTpCur7g[/youtube]
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
War is one - just one - of the awful things we do to each other. But like a lot of awful things we do, it's one of those jobs that truly occasionally needs doing. The really awful thing is that we enter into it more often than not for invalid or unnecessary reasons. It's become something we "just do" rather than something done as a last resort.
WW1? Not necessary. Diplomacy could have fixed that.
WW2 - necessary. Diplomacy was attempted and failed.
Korea? Hard to say, but likely necessary, as the North, supported by the Chinese, would have happily consumed the south. Call it "humanitarian aid by other means".
Vietnam? Propping up a crooked wanker and his family for the sake of democracy is an old excuse, and no longer valid.
Bosnia? See Korea, above.
Gulf War 1? Bringing democracy to the people of Kuwait, who had never had it, even before Iraq dropped by? A truly silly excuse.
Gulf War 2? Don't get me feckin' started.
Afghanistan? Pointless and tragic and not a little heartbreaking. 158 Canadians died for that place. I'm not sure what we've accomplished.
Sending people into potentially lethal situations for vague or ambiguous reasons is morally wrong. Their sacrifice should count for something. We should, as a people, be able to say to the widows and parents and children left behind that "your loved one, the piece of you you can never have back, died so we could do this real, concrete thing." Anything else is a horrible lie.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And, in the spirit of a photo thread, look at this:
WW1? Not necessary. Diplomacy could have fixed that.
WW2 - necessary. Diplomacy was attempted and failed.
Korea? Hard to say, but likely necessary, as the North, supported by the Chinese, would have happily consumed the south. Call it "humanitarian aid by other means".
Vietnam? Propping up a crooked wanker and his family for the sake of democracy is an old excuse, and no longer valid.
Bosnia? See Korea, above.
Gulf War 1? Bringing democracy to the people of Kuwait, who had never had it, even before Iraq dropped by? A truly silly excuse.
Gulf War 2? Don't get me feckin' started.
Afghanistan? Pointless and tragic and not a little heartbreaking. 158 Canadians died for that place. I'm not sure what we've accomplished.
Sending people into potentially lethal situations for vague or ambiguous reasons is morally wrong. Their sacrifice should count for something. We should, as a people, be able to say to the widows and parents and children left behind that "your loved one, the piece of you you can never have back, died so we could do this real, concrete thing." Anything else is a horrible lie.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And, in the spirit of a photo thread, look at this:
