10/30 AR mags
- Thread starter Salmoncan
- Start date
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Are there any markings that different pistol and rifle magazines on the hex mags? If so than that is all the proof you need that they are manufactured differently.
They published the opinion on the LAR magazines because there was a group of people ranting and raving that they were illegal magazines and that anyone that bought them was going to destroy all the gun owners and get them put in jail. So Questar, Who was selling them, asked the RCMP to clarify the issue. Some parts of that story might sound familiar.
It’s called design patents. You should read up on them.
The centrepiece to all your arguments is what YOU believe. Now, you might want to sit down for this one but no one cares what you think when it comes to importing products into the country. The government determines what qualifies as a pistol magazine.
Cool story, bro.
The government doesn’t define ease. So once again, I don’t care about what you think the law is. You’re having a real hard time understanding that your opinion doesn’t define the law.
Did I miss the part where you explained that you are actually a sentient version of the criminal code of Canada?
Sorry, the importer has no obligation to prove anything to the consumer. They only have to prove to the government that the items being imported are allowed by law to be imported into Canada.
So now they’re criminals because you don’t know how importation works. Why not say everyone is going to hell while you’re handing out condemnation?
You thought we were talking about steak and ice cream? That explains a lot.
"Pistol Carbine Magazine"... thats what is stamped on the Hexmags. I own a few carbines... they are all rifles. The definition of carbine is a light rifle. How are these pistol mags again? And for which pistol commonly available in Canada are they designed for? Also, why are rifles listed on the packaging?
Tell you what, if you're so utterly confident in yourself and these magazines, why don't you send off an example to the lab yourself? Get that written clarification from the RCMP to prove just how right you are. If that's too much, send them an email inquiring about the legality of these things. Do the community a favor and remove all doubt entirely for us. You seem to have the utmost confidence in your arguement, why don't you support it? If you can confirm that these magazines are legal for civilian consumption, I'll buy you 10 of them as my sincere thanks. I'd do it myself, but being the skeptic on this, I don't want to be the guy who ruins it for everyone else, but with your level of confidence I can't imagine you could possibly be wrong.
Never the less, I've said all I can and your argument has devolved into condescension and "humor" like most these days, and I've got better things to do than try and look out for people like you. Let me know how preserving this community goes for you.
- Location
- Fort St John B.C.
a thread full of quislings....
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
For someone who claims you wished the magazines were legal, you seem awfully committed to doing everything in your power to give the government every change to deem them prohibited.
Do you buy your magazines out of the back of an early model bullet riddled rusted out Econoline in the back parking lot of a burned out strip club where the three guys named Tony who reek of crack and insist on payment in bitcoins who have to dig through the blood soaked carpets and bags of meth to find your mail order magazines? Cause if so, yeah, I would doubt the legality of what I was buying too.
Most of us buy our mags in legitimate gun stores in broad daylight with real money without much concern for what is or is not deemed to be illegal by some bin rat in the 3rd basement at RCMP headquarters in Ottawa.
That does not exempt you from that laws though, come on you know that. Its not like these mags are being sold at Cabelas or Bass Pro. 1 small shop. Who knows how many they ordered and how they got there.
Ignorance of the law... and all that.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Do you seriously worry about the legality of every item you ever buy at any store? Anything could be stolen goods, and its an offence to possess stolen goods. Do you ask every store you shop in for proof that they legally acquired the goods they are trying to pass off on you?
If you suspect the one small shop of selling mags that arent legal, because they committed an act of fraud to have them imported, then you should probably avoid everything in that shop, not just their mags.
Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, BUT ignorance of fact IS an excuse. You can not be convicted of possession of stolen goods if you can show that you did not know, and had no reasonable opportunity to know that they were stolen.
If you are ignorant of the fact that a particular magazine is actually a rifle mag, and had a reasonable reason to believe it was a pistol magazine, then you can not be properly convicted of possession of an prohibited device. Onus is on you though to prove your beliefs were reasonable.
How about avoiding going to court altogether?
You have not answered my questions. These are the questions you should ask yourself when buying these considering they are the same questions you will have to answer to prove you believed it was a pistol mag:
Lets not forget too that once you get them out of the packaging and realize the floorplate comes off with the pish of a button and the plastic stopper is not permanently attached to the mag body you are now holding a prohibited device... and will have to dispose of them.
Paul you Assume too much of the average gun owner. You think 90% of Joe Schmo's go into a shop and ever think something being sold over the counter could be illegal? Not a chance. And to think any LEO would know the difference between a 10/10 and a 10/30 marked Pistol mag is even more of an obscure thought.
Again... ignorance of the law is not a defence. When we have 10 years of only 10 round bodied LAR15 magazines on the market... and all of a sudden 1 or 2 businesses (one not even in Canada) start selling 10/30 round pistol mags... one of which is only labelled pistol carbine... that should raise some questions in the purchaser. You can put your blinders up and think oh great! But if you already are using 10 round Lar mags in your Ar rifle... you already have some understanding of the law.
If we all just sit back and put our blinders up, how does that help our community? How do you really think the RCMP or crowns will feel about these mags if one was ever seized by a curiois police officer? What reactions do yoi think that could cause on Lar mags as a whole?
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
You can avoid going to court by having a competent lawyer present at all meetings with the crown and by pointing out the weaknesses in the case against you.
There is something fundamental missing from all your claims about the law, and that is the presumption of innocence. Presumption for me. Presumption for the store. Presumption for the importer. While the law affords me this presumption when the government is making claims against me, as a good citizen, I will afford this presumption to others that I have dealings with, until I have credible evidence to undermine that presumption.
In your questions, you offer a definition of carbine. Wonderful, but I don't care. Carbine is not defined in statute. When a judge has to determine the meaning of a word that is not defined by statute, they turn to the dictionary. Blacks Law Dictionary is where they usually go, and there is no listing for Carbine in BLD. A more contemporary source will then be used.
Wikipedia offers two definitions of Carbine:
Neither of which apply. IN the absence of statute, BLD, or common law offering a relevant definition, it becomes a pissing match between you and the crown and the judge is duty bound to give the accused the benefit of doubt.
So what does Pistol Carbine Magazine mean? I have no clue. Maybe its for pistols AND carbines. Maybe its for pistol calibre carbines. Maybe its a magazine designed to shoot pistols out of a carbine. I don't care. I don't have to prove anything. The crown has to prove that its a rifle magazine, and the word RIFLE does not appear on the magazine. At face value, it says PISTOL, which is self evident, CARBINES, which are colloquially associated with pistol caliber ammuntion, and MAGAZINE, which is self evident. How is a crown going to overcome my constitutional presumption of innocence and the judges duty to give me the benefit of doubt and prove that a magazine bearing the word pistol was manufactured or intended for use in a rifle?
Which pistol commonly available in Canada was it designed for? I don't know what the manufacturer was thinking when he designed or manufactured it, so we should ask him. Failing that again my presumption of innocence requires the judge to consider that if the magazine fits, functions and fires in any pistol commonly available in Canada, and the RCMP have conceded the LAR15 IS commonly available, and that mag fits functions and fires in an LAR15, then the magazine in question must be assumed to be an LAR15 mag, unless the crown can PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that this particular magazine in evidence was designed for something else.
Why are rifles also listed on the packaging? Probably because these magazines also fit function and fire in rifles, and therefore may be interesting to rifle owners as well. Marketing materials such as packaging are proof of who the manufacturer wanted to sell it to, not proof of its legal status. But again, a good questions for the Crown/Judge.
Your claim that a disassembled mag body becomes prohibited and must be disposed of is interesting, but probably not relevant. First, this is also true of 5/30 round mags, and dozens of different pistol mag designs, where the follower is blocked for downward travel by the follower or the floor plate, and not something attached to the mag body itself, of which there are tens of thousands in Canada. This method of pinning does not meet the criminal code regulations for pinned magazines, and yet the RCMP and CBSA have allowed hundreds of thousands of them into the country.
More importantly, a magazine body by itself does not meet the criminal code definition of magazine, as without the follower and spring tension can not feed ammunition into the of a firearm.
There is a case of a guy who tried to import 30 rd mag bodies with the intent to finish and pin them as per the regs, but he lost his case. Either he was self represented, his lawyer was crap, or he ran out of money. Either way this precedent has never been applied to legally imported magazines in a state of disassembly.
There is a grocery list of firearms that would presumably become prohibited when in a certain state of assembly as well, should we all be disposing of those as soon as we take them apart to clean them?
Right off the hop, again, you mention the need of having a good lawyer... why would that be? Your whole argument revolves around the "who me?" defence. It's absurd and is not good advise to those who will listen to someone like you and go and buy these.
You define the word carbine, both of which indicate RIFLE, and then state that doesn't apply.. how so? We are specifically talking about a pistol magazine, no? Its either a pistol magazine designed or manufactured for use in a pistol commonly available in Canada, allowing 10 rounds, or it isn't. The fact that right in the definition of its label indicates it could be for a rifle seems troubling to say it is that, no?
You state you don't care what the definition is, because YOU don't have to prove anything.
Ok, here's the crowns case. Definition of carbine=rifle. This is a pistol carbine magazine, therefore at the VERY LEAST, is a dual purpose magazine, meaning limited to 5 rounds. Easy no? That's just the tip of what their arguments could be.
You should know that which rifle or pistol a specific magazine is designed or manufactured for means EVERYTHING in our laws. Hence why some .22lr magazines may look like a duck and talk like a duck, but has to be labelled on the packaging for a penguin or it's limited to 10 rounds. I have a HK G36 in .22lr... the HK mags must be at 10, but the Colt M4 .22lr mags are ok at more than 10. They both look and function the same, but because one was designed or manufactured for a rifle that also happens to have a pistol variant that is commonly available in Canada, it has to be 10 rounds. The same applies to every magazine., including this one.
Just because a magazine fits and functions in a certain firearm, the real issue is what firearm that magazine was originally designed or manufactured for... that's what gave us the 10 round loophole in the first place.
You mention the crown needing to prove the magazine was designed or manufactured for use in something other than the LAR15... ok.. here you go:
View attachment 130138
Right from the manufacturers website, its for an M4, M16 or AR15.... You say a good question for the crown or judge.... sure, because that's where we want this to go, right?
Anyway, I'm sure you will reply with something along the lines of, this is irrelevant etc... but then you always fall back on playing innocent while the crown proves your fault. I think that in itself is a DANGEROUS attitude towards our gun laws, that may place people in spots financially they wished they weren't. But you could always represent them pro-bono?
- Location
- Fort St John B.C.
quislings.....
Give it a rest... no need for insults just move on or add some real input.
I'm stunned that once again you are trying to define the terms. Attempting to shift the argument is a brilliant strategy! Now it's my responsibility to prove to you that these magazines that the government allowed into the country are legal.
Why would I need to do this? The government allowed them to be imported into the country. The government allowed a registered business to sell them. If there's an issue with them that's between the customs broker, the company and the government. There's an entire process that regulates business in this and every other country in the Western world. The government pays people to handle these matters. If they made a mistake, that's on them. If the government informs me that they changed their mind and the magazines are no longer allowable for use then I take the appropriate action. It's really not an overwhelming scenario.
You think I'm going to be impressed by $200 worth of magazines?
Wait, now you don't want to email? You've been doing nothing but demanding a response to your emails from the company as to the legality of these magazines but now you refuse to contact that people who actually determine the legality of these magazines? The same people that monitor what is imported into the country and sold by licensed businesses? Do you think that cross-border transactions are happening under the cover of darkness? Did they use Al Capone's old bootlegging tunnels to get the hundreds of magazines they have already sold into Canada? Did they put "TOTALLY NOT ILLEGAL MAGAZINES" in their EDI filing? If that's the case, they're being rather cavalier posting them on their website and Facebook. You'd think they'd want to slip them out the backdoor. So bold, just hoping Dudley Do Right doesn't nab them in the act.
Wow, what an inflated ego you have. Oh my god. I didn't know you were the guy that made firearms legal for Canada. Somehow I missed that in the footnotes of the Firearms Act. Oh, what a grand tragedy that I have now relegated the end of legal firearms by posting in a forum and questioning your opinion. IF I HAD ONLY KNOWN!
Exactly how far have you taken your fantasy of saving the "community"? Have you created a scene where after the purge by the government in the far off future where no one has a firearm because of the posts of the villainous traitor TheOnlyRightAnswer that in the street two men pass by and silently whisper "FoxAlpha" to each other? Knowing that just by uttering the name of the man who once shepherded the Canadian firearm community and kept them safe from harm provides the lift their souls need in hope of the day when once again they could get their hands on the beloved rifles of their forefathers? How do you end this scenario? With a warm sunrise or a statue being dedicated in your honour?
