1911 tests - enough to make TDC's head explode.

Feel free...that would be a prime example of the same sandbox mentality I was just talking about.
...and BTW don't even think that the gun world is starting and finishing with the Canadian RPAL...you know.
People in other countries are playing with the firearms as well...and they don't need the RPAL to do this.
Have a nice evening Mr yyyy :)
 
USP said:
TDC you talk alot about training and tactics, but training for what? Is Alberta getting that rough? Or were you planning on trying out one day for the ETF in law enforcement?
Click to expand...

Maybe because the thread was about the 1911 being the ultimate combat pistol.

Don't you think in a discussion of the merits of the pistol, then the tactics for it's use would be relevant?

Further, for Bob and Wes, particularly and respectfully:

From the IDPA home page:

"The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters."

As such, the discussion seems relevant to the game as well.

I would hope that your would be more welcoming of a discussion of tactics rather than calling someone the Keyboard Commando. Agreed , TDC's comments can come across broad sweeping or rough, but he unlike others has kept the discussion to the gun/tactics more or less.
 
Nestor said:
Feel free...that would be a prime example of the same sandbox mentality I was just talking about.
...and BTW don't even think that the gun world is starting and finishing with the Canadian RPAL...you know.
People in other countries are playing with the firearms as well...and they don't need the RPAL to do this.
Have a nice evening Mr yyyy :)
Click to expand...

Indeed, classic examples are where they fire bullets into the air at weddings with falling bullets killing family members.

Feel free to continue PLAYING with your firearms.

You clearly attacked the people in the thread rather than adding to the discussion. So please leave the discussion to those who have something to add on the topic.
 
TDC,I mean the stock trigger on a 1911,is very forgiving,quick reset,the pull is streight to the rear along the same axis as the bore,no pivot, and thats stock out of the box no work done.

I use to think like you about triggers,how the pull weight and let off weren't that important,untill I got a nice 1873 clone with a very crisp trigger,what a huge difference.

Trigger control is easier with a good trigger,with everything you been saying ,why wouldn't you take advantage of a good trigger to aid in shot placement?
 
yyyyy said:
Maybe because the thread was about the 1911 being the ultimate combat pistol.

Don't you think in a discussion of the merits of the pistol, then the tactics for it's use would be relevant?

Further, for Bob and Wes, particularly and respectfully:

From the IDPA home page:

"The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters."

As such, the discussion seems relevant to the game as well.

I would hope that your would be more welcoming of a discussion of tactics rather than calling someone the Keyboard Commando. Agreed , TDC's comments can come across broad sweeping or rough, but he unlike others has kept the discussion to the gun/tactics more or less.
Click to expand...


well the 1911 has a more proven track record in combat that any Glock does...:D

I havent called anybody a keyboard commando, I asked whether TDC owns a 1911 or not. I think its difficult to have a formative opinion on other firearms if you havent shot one alot or at least own one of them.
 
You are correct, between a G21 and a 1911 the dimensional advantage goes to the 1911. That however isn't the only criteria, nor does it compensate for the other lacking attributes.

My statement regarding increased recoil was comparing 1911's or any 45ACP pistol to their 40 and 9mm counterparts.

Options available for the 1911 are cosmetic surgery for an ugly face. The thriving market of parts and accessories is simply marketing to the lowest common denominator. Same goes for the crap offered for Glocks or any other service pistol. If something must be changed, the design is flawed.

Glocks 4th gen pistols and the preceding models are identical in design. The addition of accessory rails, finger tabs and checkering have nothing to do with the design. The 1911 is far more complicated beast. 52 parts compared to 35. More parts, more parts to fail.

Replacing worn or broken parts isn't rocket science on any pistol. Having to send your pistol to the smith for a polished feed ramp, lowered and flared E port, polished trigger parts etc etc is not covered in the owners manual. Aside from replacing springs, there is nothing that needs to be done to a Glock to improve its reliability or simplicity.

25 rounds for carry is a substantial amount of ammo. I still have to ask, why anyone would carry 25 when they could carry 30-52 rounds? Supporting the reduced magazine capacity with "evidence of 45ACP supremacy" is foolish. Note the link below. For those who don't wish to read the full story I'll post the important part.

http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html

Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs—considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available—Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Soulis could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state

TDC
 
Agreed. I should have sectioned off that part of the post better.

Your point is well taken, in that the 1911 has a long history, and was/is a major influence on the sport, CCW, Cooper, etc. That said, look at the revolution in polymer pistols, out of the box reliability in the (copied IMHO) XD, M&P, Sigma, and Glock, and imagine looking back on the first 20 years of the 1911 and the first 20 years of the Glock.

Kinda like the whole "rock and roll is just a fad" thing... ;)
 
yyyyy said:
Why is that? Nice play on words in your reply, if you just meant it that way. But if not, then I would assume then that you aren't all that versed on what qualifies a "good shoot" or the anatomy, psychology, or legality involved in a defensive (or offensive for that matter) shoot.
Click to expand...

Whoa,there troop,maybe it's time to switch to decaf?
 
Greenhorse six said:
TDC,I mean the stock trigger on a 1911,is very forgiving,quick reset,the pull is streight to the rear along the same axis as the bore,no pivot, and thats stock out of the box no work done.

I use to think like you about triggers,how the pull weight and let off weren't that important,untill I got a nice 1873 clone with a very crisp trigger,what a huge difference.

Trigger control is easier with a good trigger,with everything you been saying ,why wouldn't you take advantage of a good trigger to aid in shot placement?
Click to expand...

You're right, a nice crisp trigger can make a difference. However, a nice crisp trigger isn't needed. If the task can be accomplished with other triggers with more travel, more resistance then is the crisp trigger really needed? Aside from the potential advantage they offer, do they sacrifice reliability? Does the crisp trigger offset the other negatives of the system in question? Everything is a give and take. I'll take a less than buttery smooth trigger in a high capacity reliable system, such as a Glock over the smooth trigger of the heavier, numerically inferior(capacity wise) 1911. The great attributes of the 1911 such as the trigger can be over come with training. Reliability and simplicity cannot be taught, they are fixed variables. I choose to change or advance my skills, as opposed to changing my gear to suit my skill set.

TDC
 
yyyyy said:
Agreed. I should have sectioned off that part of the post better.

Your point is well taken, in that the 1911 has a long history, and was/is a major influence on the sport, CCW, Cooper, etc. That said, look at the revolution in polymer pistols, out of the box reliability in the (copied IMHO) XD, M&P, Sigma, and Glock, and imagine looking back on the first 20 years of the 1911 and the first 20 years of the Glock.

Kinda like the whole "rock and roll is just a fad" thing... ;)
Click to expand...

Well like any sensible person on CGN I own a 1911, I also own a Glock, Sig and HK pistols. Glock is a mass produced relatively simple and robust design that does well in 9mm. People get confused in regards to the 1911 though. The original design was very simple and meant to have sloppy tolerances to feed ball ammo, which it did well. People often have issues with 1911s when they run JHPs are close up the tolerances.

Its incorrect to say that Glock is a better gun and a better design. Its more correct to say that if a Glock shoots well for you and say a 1911 doesnt than perhaps for you the Glock is a better gun.

That being said if you dont own a 1911 go buy one, the trigger is great and gun has a very solid balance to it that most polymer guns lack due to them being top heavy with only 10 round mags in them.
 
TDC said:
You're right, a nice crisp trigger can make a difference. However, a nice crisp trigger isn't needed. If the task can be accomplished with other triggers with more travel, more resistance then is the crisp trigger really needed? Aside from the potential advantage they offer, do they sacrifice reliability? Does the crisp trigger offset the other negatives of the system in question? Everything is a give and take. I'll take a less than buttery smooth trigger in a high capacity reliable system, such as a Glock over the smooth trigger of the heavier, numerically inferior(capacity wise) 1911. The great attributes of the 1911 such as the trigger can be over come with training. Reliability and simplicity cannot be taught, they are fixed variables. I choose to change or advance my skills, as opposed to changing my gear to suit my skill set.

TDC
Click to expand...

Your forgetting that most LE departments want longer travel triggers or DAO guns as they decrease liability of ADs or inadvertent shootings when the officer is under stress- something that would be harder to manage with a single action 1911 with little travel. Plus most departments transitioned over from wheel guns to Glocks so the Glock with no external safety and a long trigger travel made retraining "easier". That and large discounts to LE made the Glock popular.
 
Greenhorse six said:
Whoa,there troop,maybe it's time to switch to decaf?
Click to expand...

Why? I am not attacking you or jumping on you personally?

You challenged the statement so I asked why. Sorry if it came across harsh.

I am saying that that statement is pretty damn clear, and very well worded. It comes from one of the nations leading experts and expert witnesses in defensive shooting and handgun instruction.

Intent to terminate the person, rather than behavior is a question from court, reasonable force, etc..

If you disagree, then lets discuss.

No hard feelings?

:)
 
USP said:
Your forgetting that most LE departments want longer travel triggers or DAO guns as they decrease liability of ADs or inadvertent shootings when the officer is under stress- something that would be harder to manage with a single action 1911 with little travel. Plus most departments transitioned over from wheel guns to Glocks so the Glock with no external safety and a long trigger travel made retraining "easier". That and large discounts to LE made the Glock popular.
Click to expand...

True, but being able to reliably put a couple thousand rounds through it out of the box for 500 bucks probably played a part too.
 
USP said:
well the 1911 has a more proven track record in combat that any Glock does...:D

I havent called anybody a keyboard commando, I asked whether TDC owns a 1911 or not. I think its difficult to have a formative opinion on other firearms if you havent shot one alot or at least own one of them.
Click to expand...

i don't own a 1911 and never have. I have shot many rounds through several 1911's including a Norinco(don't tell anyone I handled Chinese goods;)). I'm not sure owning one would qualify one to have an informative opinion. With the plethora of "like new" "only 200 rounds fired" pistols for sale(of all brands) there doesn't seem to be many who have given any pistol an honest try let alone enough rounds to form an educated opinion.

The 1911 can get the job done, bit it isn't the best suited pistol for combat or personal defense. There is nothing a 1911 can do that another brand can't do as well or better.

The track record of the 1911 is based on many years of service where the 1911 was a sign of rank as opposed to being viewed as a capable tool of the trade. Not to mention the 1911 has been around for nearly 100 years. The Glock has been around just under 25 years and has clearly shown its an advancement in design and is here to stay. Not bad for less than 25 years.

TDC
 
TDC said:
My big beef is with the IDPA and their associated leagues. There is nothing "defensive" about IDPA. There is a distinct lack of practical real world tactics being harvested in the IDPA community.
Click to expand...

Like what exactly?
Shooting on the move? Reloading while under cover? Slide lock reloads? Slicing the pie?

Admittedly, IDPA will not simulate real life gunfights anymore than it can within the confines and context of a competitive shooting sport, but I'd like to know what 'tactics' are lacking?


TDC said:
Aside from poor tactics there is a tendency to push the hardware solution to software problems.
Click to expand...
I don't see that. I see a competitive shooting sport that has remained fairly true to the context of CCW.
TDC said:
IDPA is rapidly sliding into the IPSC sink hole.
Click to expand...
I shoot both Gerra, and haven't seen you within miles of each. The above is just false.

TDC said:
High dollar guns and gear coupled with volumes of ignorant rules.
Click to expand...
They are shooting sports, nothing more, nothing less. I use my <almost> box stock G17 in both - the same pistol you have been filling pages upon pages defending in this thread.;)
 
TDC said:
i don't own a 1911 and never have. I have shot many rounds through several 1911's including a Norinco(don't tell anyone I handled Chinese goods;)). I'm not sure owning one would qualify one to have an informative opinion. With the plethora of "like new" "only 200 rounds fired" pistols for sale(of all brands) there doesn't seem to be many who have given any pistol an honest try let alone enough rounds to form an educated opinion.

The 1911 can get the job done, bit it isn't the best suited pistol for combat or personal defense. There is nothing a 1911 can do that another brand can't do as well or better.

The track record of the 1911 is based on many years of service where the 1911 was a sign of rank as opposed to being viewed as a capable tool of the trade. Not to mention the 1911 has been around for nearly 100 years. The Glock has been around just under 25 years and has clearly shown its an advancement in design and is here to stay. Not bad for less than 25 years.

TDC
Click to expand...

and yet the Glock doesnt seem to be gaining wide acceptance with the Military. I heard some elite US units recently got rid of their Glock 40s after having alot of issues with them. 1911s are still used, even the Beretta is there, Sig is represented as well, yet Glock not so much.

I think maybe your clouding the issue. The 1911 perhaps has a higher training curve than the simpler controls free Glock, however the end result can be rewarding. I still suggest you buy a 1911 and shoot it for a couple of years and then re-evaluate what youve posted.


I would suggest also that if life gets so dangerous you think only having 7 or 8 rounds isnt enough, maybe you should move :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom