1958 (K) Factory Matching Letter Series SKS

[pcvando]

...and better pictures of the gas tube without the last two digits blurred out will likely demonstrate more of the previous serial that lies beneath the current one.

The arrow indicate the presence of a previous serial beneath bluing or paint on both the piston shaft and the piston tube:



Additional evidence of refurb paint, this time on the receiver cover:

This is pathetic... There is no EP serial under the old serial... that is dust and hair from the blanket... also several collectors have already examined this rifle in person and in detailed full pics and there is NO number under that number. That last pic shows zero paint.

Speaking of paint, did you happen to eat paint chips as a child?

 

[Boris Badinov]

This is pathetic... There is no EP serial under the old serial... that is dust and hair from the blanket... also several collectors have already examined this rifle in person and in detailed full pics and there is NO number under that number.

Yeah I figured you'd back out. I mean I only specified the part photos I would need to see about twenty times in various threads over the past month.

It doesn't look like dust or blanket hair in the photo. Not at all. Looks more like blued over/shadow ep serials from a previous rifle.

That last pic shows zero paint.

I don't know, pcvando. Better pictures might help. But it sure looks like chipped paint over bluing. One of the other types of paint that is found on soviet refurbs is a high gloss polymer similar to permablue. Even in person it looks almost like actual bluing. Of course a full length photo of a prominent annealing stripe on the receiver cover (with serial in the same shot, of course) would go a long way to proving that at least the cover may not be re-blued or painted.

Speaking of paint, did you happen to eat paint chips as a child?

Har, har. Good one. But no.

But I have a better idea now of who it was that licked all the paint off of the butt plate.


BTW. Nice refurb. Beautiful.

Too bad about the franken pin though.

 

[Boris Badinov]

Just to compile it in one post reply, here are the issues I have with your purported all original/non-refurb/as-issued carbine.


1. Evidence of likely previous serial numbers, overblued or painted over. We've all seen hair, fiber and dust in close up photos. Everyone else can judge for themselves, but these don't appear to be any of the three.

2. Clear delineation between original blue and reblue on gas tube

3. What looks like obvious indication of chipped paint (remember not all Soviet refurb paint was the cheap bbq kind)

4. Most glaringly obvious red flag: chipped paint on the buttplate. With the paint mysteriously applied OVER the EP serial. (???)

5. (Photo omitted of the prominent annealing stripe on the receiver cover with serial in shot for verification)

6. (Photo omitted of the muzzle crown)

7.(Photo omitted of the left side staking marks on the bayonet screw)

That makes four issues I've noted with the original/nonrefurb/as-issued condition of your rifle, with three other crucial, evidentiary photos seemingly forgotten or purposely omitted.

 

[Boris Badinov]

I have a problem with the '3' on the bolt carrier. Seems the font (round top of the '3') is different the the rest. Unless it's a camera distortion.

The fotos all have quality issues regarding HD retention in the zoom function. But the serials all appear to be in the same exact font.

Which indicates that stamped components are all original to the rifle.

The originality of EP serialized parts is doubtful.

 

[Horilka]

The paint you are seeing is not the Russian arsenal BBQ refurb paint. It is paint applied by the importer or exporter slapped on to protect from rust during the storage during the export import to customer process. It rubs off with your fingernail and comes off with simple gun cleaning supplies leaving unharmed original finish. Some of the as issued non refurb guns had rubbed areas on the butt plates from rack storage. Thus the blue is thinner or worn on some places and the paint was used to protect those areas for the export import process. Was commonly done to the ones imported to Canada.

You'll never convince true believer, this guy has no idea on what refurb is and comes up with some self-invented terminology like "rearsenal treatment". He also clearly has no idea how exactly refurbishing was performed and substitute lack of knowledge with fantasies.

This flaking paint is not a part of refurbishing as we know it. I saw same paint on guns many year ago in Ukraine when I was part of this business. I was told it was "pre-sale" preparation. Sloppy paint was usually present on lightly rusted or rubbed parts on otherwise OK condition rifles and could be easily removed. Pre-sale prep is might be the case, there's another explanation as well, again not related to refurbishing. At the storage facilities where rifles end up either after arsenal or factory (if there's no need to inspect and refurb) there are inspection procedures, don't quote me but something like once in 5 or 10 years or so. Every crate is opened, rifles inspected, date and signature to the packaging list. During this inspection minor issues like surface rust can be fixed on spot with this paint, nobody would send a rifle to repair arsenal from storage facility just to fix surface rust on the buttplate.

Now, I can paint the barrel pink on factory original rifle, how does it affect the fact stock is still original to this rifle? Don't ask "experts" this question, they know better - "it's the sign of rearsenal treatment". I wonder if it's worth educating those "SKS experts" a bit on stock acceptance markings, how and when they changed... but right, I keep forgetting, even if they don't know something they use their fantasies instead of facts and observations. This particular individual already claimed so much BS and conveniently kept silent on every topic he was pointed out so I feel no meaningful conversation is possible at all. Just for laughs. I actually wonder why pcvando decided to waste time making pictures an posting this rifle.

 

[Boris Badinov]

The fact is, Horilka, that there were 40-50 intervening years before any of the Soviet guns made it to the civilian markets in the US and Canada. Unless these crates came with a detailed, fifty year service log, there is no way to claim with 100% certainty that any given rifle is all original, non-refurbed, or as-issued.

However, there are various attributes by which, through meticulous, OBJECTIVE, examination we are able to say that particular rifle is possibly all-original, or obviously lightly re-worked or heavily re-furbished.

When a gorgeous rifle like this pops up, it's easy to overlook or forget these obvious, yardstick attributes that we take into account when we examine lesser, and aesthetically inferior carbines. As each of these attributes arise during examination, by varying degrees we have to remove a given carbine from consideration as a prototypical example of original condition.

This rifle falls into that category. By virtue of these various refurb attributes i have pointed out, this rifle cannot be called an example of original condition. As a result, there is no way to say if the stock is original.

1958 K in an as-issued hardwood stock?

Meh. Maybe. But, given that this would be an exception to the rule (observed standard, really) the bar for proof must be placed very high. As each indication of refurbishment appears, the originality of the piece falls further into doubt, and gets incrementally harder to argue.

I've pointed out four questionable attributes for the OP rifle already. And I am still hopeful and waiting for more evidentiary photos (annealing stripe, muzzle crown, bayonet staking marks), though it seems these will be purposely withheld.

I get it, it's not my ball. If pcvando doesn't want to play anymore, he can take the ball home and end the game.

Lest we forget:

Boris, come out and play!

I came out to play, pcvando. Why did you go home already, sulking?

 

[Boris Badinov]

As I see it, the wider sks collecting community has a consensus derived, yardstick standard by which we guage the veracity or demonstrate the dubiousness of claims of originality.

Objectively this rifle bears several (and possibly more) of the widely accepted attributes of non-originality.

So, Horilka, feel free to leave the conversation along with pcvando. Maybe you see nothing to learn from the points I've made. Others can determine for themselves.

 

[Horilka]

However, there are various attributes by which, through meticulous, OBJECTIVE, examination we are able to say that particular rifle is possibly all-original, or obviously lightly re-worked or heavily re-furbished.

And you clearly don't know how to tell factory original stock from refurbished factory stock from refurbished replaced NOS stock from refurbished recycled stock. You also don't know enough about acceptance markings on the stock, don't know whne and how they changed, you already proved it with your ignorant statements. So stop lecturing and go educate yourself.
I'm not on the mission here to have this conversation, I'm having it as long as I'm having fun with "experts" like you. And I'm always ready to have meaningful conversation with polite and reasonable collectors, even if we don't agree on certain things.

 

[pcvando]

The fact is, Horilka, that there were 40-50 intervening years before any of the Soviet guns made it to the civilian markets in the US and Canada. Unless these crates came with a detailed, fifty year service log, there is no way to claim with 100% certainty that any given rifle is all original, non-refurbed, or as-issued.

However, there are various attributes by which, through meticulous, OBJECTIVE, examination we are able to say that particular rifle is possibly all-original, or obviously lightly re-worked or heavily re-furbished.

When a gorgeous rifle like this pops up, it's easy to overlook or forget these obvious, yardstick attributes that we take into account when we examine lesser, and aesthetically inferior carbines. As each of these attributes arise during examination, by varying degrees we have to remove a given carbine from consideration as a prototypical example of original condition.

This rifle falls into that category. By virtue of these various refurb attributes i have pointed out, this rifle cannot be called an example of original condition. As a result, there is no way to say if the stock is original.

1958 K in an as-issued hardwood stock?

Meh. Maybe. But, given that this would be an exception to the rule (observed standard, really) the bar for proof must be placed very high. As each indication of refurbishment appears, the originality of the piece falls further into doubt, and gets incrementally harder to argue.

I've pointed out four questionable attributes for the OP rifle already. And I am still hopeful and waiting for more evidentiary photos (annealing stripe, muzzle crown, bayonet staking marks), though it seems these will be purposely withheld.

I get it, it's not my ball. If pcvando doesn't want to play anymore, he can take the ball home and end the game.

Lest we forget:

I came out to play, pcvando. Why did you go home already, sulking?

Ok, since you are way more difficult than I had ever imagined, I am posting the following photos for reference to others that are reading this thread.

You sensationalize a piece of a hair or dust on the piston, and a finger print smudge on the top cover.

Here are the photos you requested, the lighting is not the best but it will do.

I am thoroughly convinced you will still find some way to find fault, where none exists. You should write Justin Trudeau's speeches, a lot is said but he really isn't saying much, just jumping around the same non-issue topics.

Piston:

Top cover: (As you can see, annealing stripe is nice and visible.)

Top cover: (Zero signs of anything you talk about...original bluing, white halos around metal show nicely at a better angle)

Gas tube cover: (Notice the annealing band around the vent ports, which is proper heat treatment for rifles.)

There is zero doubt that this rifle has been refurbished. Everyone on this board, and on other boards would agree if I posted threads there too.

I called you out to play thinking you would actually show true sportsmanship and collecting interest and admit you were mistaken, but unfortunately you've proven that brawn trumps factual evidence.

There is nothing magic or mysterious about this K block 1956 SKS. It is 100% factory original as issued.

Light paint was applied to the rear screws during export/or periodic Soviet/Russian inspections - this is normal. It comes off with the slightest rub with a cloth.

I really would have thought you'd be willing to take some vital knowledge away from this with you, but I see you prefer to just play detective without using reason.

Non refurbished 100% matching factory K series 1958 hardwood rifles do exist. This is one, and you seem to be completely overlooking it.

 

[Boris Badinov]

And you clearly don't know how to tell factory original stock from refurbished factory stock from refurbished replaced NOS stock from refurbished recycled stock. You also don't know enough about acceptance markings on the stock, don't know whne and how they changed, you already proved it with your ignorant statements. So stop lecturing and go educate yourself.

I grant that I know very little, close to nothing about Soviet protocols for acceptance stamps on stocks.

The only people who knew/know that are the people who worked within Soviet arsenals or in close proximal function to the production process.



So, Horilka, pleeeaaase, tell everybody, if you would, Exactly which soviet arsenal did you work for? And for what span of time, exactly? Show your evidence, please.

(Just, fyi. That was a rhetorical question. EVERYONE already knows your answer. So don't get your feelings hurt any further if I don't hold my breath waiting for your answer).

 

[Boris Badinov]

pcvando-

Thanks, for posting more photos. Cover looks original blued, and not painted. See how better photos help immensely?


Also,You seem to have forgotten

1. a better, HD close-up of the (hair/fiber/dust) EP serial on the gas tube.
2. Photo of the muzzle crown
3. Photo of the left side staking marks on the bayonet lug screw

And still, there is the paint on the butt plate.

 

[pcvando]

Pics coming

We know legit 100% matching hardwood rifles do exist from 1957 & 1958.

So next question, what percentage of the total production? Probably few compared to laminate rifles, but we don't really know any official figures.

 

[pcvando]

Gas tube:

The different colour band on the left you are seeing is the annealing ring around the vent holes.

See:

 

[Boris Badinov]

A better thread would be detailed photographic evidence of 1957 or 1958 Hardwood AND Laminates.

Feel free, pcvando. Start that thread. There's one already started on sks-files.com. Feel free to join the forum over there (instead of lurking and snapping screenshots), and sharing the detailed evidence for dedicated US, SKS collectors and enthusiasts to examine.

 

[pcvando]

A better thread would be detailed photographic evidence of 1957 or 1958 Hardwood AND Laminates.

Feel free, pcvando. Start that thread. There's one already started on sks-files.com. Feel free to join the forum over there (instead of lurking and snapping screenshots), and sharing the detailed evidence for dedicated US, SKS collectors and enthusiasts to examine.

I have never done this, you must have me confused with someone else.

I will certainly do so with regards to posting threads on other forums.

 

[pcvando]

15 Sleeping beauties.

 

[Horilka]

I grant that I know very little, close to nothing about Soviet protocols for acceptance stamps on stocks.

The only people who knew/know that are the people who worked within Soviet arsenals or in close proximal function to the production process.



So, Horilka, pleeeaaase, tell everybody, if you would, Exactly which soviet arsenal did you work for? And for what span of time, exactly? Show your evidence, please.

(Just, fyi. That was a rhetorical question. EVERYONE already knows your answer. So don't get your feelings hurt any further if I don't hold my breath waiting for your answer).

Right baby, all knowledgeable collectors have been Tula and Izhevsk factory workers in the past. This is exactly how it works. Don't judge ppl by yourself, if you're not able to learn, Boris, it doesn't mean other are not able too. The ridiculous statements like this is why I would never have a serious conversation with you bud.

 

[Boris Badinov]

Let's not forget, Horilka, that until this year:

1) You had no idea that there were EP serials on the gas tube and piston shaft-- and therefore never even bothered to take photos of those parts for the all original rifles that you sold to unwitting buyers.

2) And you also thought that Tula Stars were common practice on 1957 and 1958 soviet sks carbines.

 

[7ECA]

Jeez, so much for the camaraderie of the firearms collecting community. These threads always go the same way; "look at my new surplus rifle, looks great!", one or two "sure is a nice example, take care of it", and then the inevitable chit show of "REFURB-mania!!!!!".

Give me a friggin' break.

 

[pcvando]

Jeez, so much for the camaraderie of the firearms collecting community. These threads always go the same way; "look at my new surplus rifle, looks great!", one or two "sure is a nice example, take care of it", and then the inevitable chit show of "REFURB-mania!!!!!".

Give me a friggin' break.

LOL

Very true, and I think in this case I’ve done enough to demonstrate that my rifle is a non refurb