1958 (K) Factory Matching Letter Series SKS

[Boris Badinov]

No-no-no, don't get serious bud, please don't. You remember Fun Bob that was fun for a reason? You don't want to become Boring Boris.
Of course I did not know anything until last month. Maybe my subconsciousness knew something, dunno? Adios, dear "expert". Everyone who wanted to know about hardwood stocks in Letter series has already came to conclusion, so really nothing to discuss here, at least with you. Sincerely thank you for all the fun.

Fair enough.

But this only resurrects the question of why you omitted photos of the gas tube and piston for the rifle you sold. If you knew the serials were there, and, as we see, took the care to provide those photos for other rifles, why did you omit them for the "all original/non-refurb" letter rifle in a previous thread?

Was it because the rifle in the ad is an obvious refurb, whereas with the previous rifle you were trying to maintain the "all-original/non-refurb" claim,
and omitted evidence to the contrary? I guess we will never know. Rather conveniently you sold the rifle before you remembered or had a chance to photograph the gas tube and piston serials.

 

[Boris Badinov]

With this heavy refurb 1949, we see an excellent example of the point I made earlier that reblue and/or paint on the gas tube is a trait associated with refurbs:

 

[pcvando]

Very nice.

This is a good example of why I ask to see the annealing stripes on the receiver covers.
The rifle on the left has a prominent stripe. Whereas the ones I've highlighted exhibit signs of an annealing stripe obscured by re-bluing:

Sorry this is incorrect, the annealing stripes are all fairly even, it is a combo of oil and bad lighting and QC. If I take them all out and take good pics, you can see they are all fairly even.

Secondly, I have training in heat treatments and metallurgy and for your info, the process isn't as consistent as you think. Some might be more visible and others less so, all depends on the guy doing it.

These have not been re-blued, impossible since the serials were applied after bluing was done.

 

[pcvando]

These SKS threads are very entertaining as well as informative, thank you guys from US and Canada.

SKS is such a prolific carbine however its use is somewhat misunderstood. SKS was never meant to be front line weapon, its mostly used to be issued to guards and secondary troops in Soviet army, troops that have first objective other than shooting and fighting on front line. Therefore almost all SKS carbines in Soviet union were mainly carried and rarely shot.

My father served in Soviet army for 3 years from 1959 up to 1962. First year in basic he was issued AK, then the rest of his service for 2 years he served on railroads and was issued sks. According to him he only shot his issued SKS 2 times. 10 rounds total, 5 rds when issued to him and 5 when his service was done. I might even have his carbine if only he could remember serial number lol.

Thus, some of these carbines, depending to what units they were issued to had no significant round counts. They went through multiple refurbishment processes only due to external damage or fault. Some had to be completely refurbished, some had to be just reshellacked and or worn out butt plates repainted and in order not to confuse buttplates from one to other during refurbishment they epd serial numbers on them. Bayos may have been replaced or screws lose etc.

Therefore its highly unlikely that any of the SKS carbines since 1950's to present days had not gone through any form of refurbishment at all, again some more some less. Therefore if some one states that their Soviet SKS carbine is non refurbished, one has to take it with grain of salt.
The only way to be sure is if documented sks was taken from Tula or Izhevsk plant and stored in Museum and then sold to collectors, other than that no way of proving it.

Nice rifles guys, keep pictures coming.

Cool, but I disagree when you say it is highly unlikely that any missed refurbishment.

Many SKS rifles simply never got issued out, there are some official documents on this too on a few forums, I will find the info and post it.

 

[pcvando]

@Boris, I find it very frustrating that you state things that you don't fully understand, or at least it appears that way.

When the annealing is done to the top covers, it is also done to vital areas of the SKS carbine, including the vent port holes etc.

This is Soviet era quality control, which was not the most stringent. Secondly, the process for heat treating relies on the individual operator, and each one will be slightly different depending on the time of exposure, hence why some show a very prominent stripe and others slightly weaker. This is NOT a automatic sign of a re-blue.

Especially when the serials were struck after and you can see the white "halos" on the metal from bare metal being exposed.

On another note, you act as if everything is known about SKS rifles, when in reality much is not.

 

[Boris Badinov]

These SKS threads are very entertaining as well as informative, thank you guys from US and Canada.

SKS is such a prolific carbine however its use is somewhat misunderstood. SKS was never meant to be front line weapon, its mostly used to be issued to guards and secondary troops in Soviet army, troops that have first objective other than shooting and fighting on front line. Therefore almost all SKS carbines in Soviet union were mainly carried and rarely shot.

My father served in Soviet army for 3 years from 1959 up to 1962. First year in basic he was issued AK, then the rest of his service for 2 years he served on railroads and was issued sks. According to him he only shot his issued SKS 2 times. 10 rounds total, 5 rds when issued to him and 5 when his service was done. I might even have his carbine if only he could remember serial number lol.

Thus, some of these carbines, depending to what units they were issued to had no significant round counts. They went through multiple refurbishment processes only due to external damage or fault. Some had to be completely refurbished, some had to be just reshellacked and or worn out butt plates repainted and in order not to confuse buttplates from one to other during refurbishment they epd serial numbers on them. Bayos may have been replaced or screws lose etc.

Therefore its highly unlikely that any of the SKS carbines since 1950's to present days had not gone through any form of refurbishment at all, again some more some less. Therefore if some one states that their Soviet SKS carbine is non refurbished, one has to take it with grain of salt.
The only way to be sure is if documented sks was taken from Tula or Izhevsk plant and stored in Museum and then sold to collectors, other than that no way of proving it.

Nice rifles guys, keep pictures coming.

Lots of good, insightful points. Thanks.

This is another angle on the notion that no one can say with 100% certainty that any piece is all original, non refurbished, as issued, and fresh from the crate since the day it came off the line.

'As issued', 'unissued,' 'non-refurbished,' 'all original,' and any other similar claims of pristine are really only guesses. Those guesses either stand or falter on the evidence that each individual rifle exhibits.

 

[jaroslav]

It's interesting, when geweher76 mentions epd buttplates when being refurbd. I have never seen epd buttplate. Pcvando's SKS is the first.

 

[Boris Badinov]

@Boris,...

...On another note, you act as if everything is known about SKS rifles, when in reality much is not.

This is a debate. We have each taken a side. Our individual objectives are bound to the point we are trying to make.

I am absolutely open to the consideration that hardwood might have been original, as-issued, non refurb, on 1957 and 1958 carbines.( I have seen plenty of them in hardwood stocks. So far none that have passed the non-refurb trait checklist.)

 

[Boris Badinov]

It's interesting, when geweher76 mentions epd buttplates when being refurbd. I have never seen epd buttplate. Pcvando's SKS is the first.

It's not very common, but it's common enough.

I've read suggestions that the epd buttplares are signs of refurbishment too, largely.conjecture iirc.

 

[pcvando]

It's interesting, when geweher76 mentions epd buttplates when being refurbd. I have never seen epd buttplate. Pcvando's SKS is the first.

How can you guys call yourself experts when this is such simple common knowledge...

Later production SKS rifles received factory Epd butt plates, there is NO conjecture about this. (I believe it is mid 1954-onward, though I’d have to double check.)

This is in NO way a sign of refurb.

It is fact.

 

[gewehr76]

There are many epd parts on SKS right from factory as they can not be stamped with serial number due to their nature. Rear sight needs to be precise, can't be stamped, piston and gas tube are round, extractor is too small. Then why ep butt plate for?
If one looks at the stock and butt plate, and compares to another stock and butt plate they are not the same. They may look similar, however they are not interchangeable, Their curvature varies from stock to stock.

Now lets say bunch of issued new sks at the repair depot needs of refinishing stocks because wood is getting bare. This is in manual I believe, shellack should be applied at certain intervals, as simple maintenance. so If butt plate removed from its original stock and mixed with other butt plates, its going to be nightmare to match them up without serial number. That's why before removing butt plate for reshellacking of the stock it gets epd stock's serial number, in order to avoid mix up. That's one of the signs of refurbishment process or maintenance.

Then how come some butt plates have the serial number, some don't?
It all depends on facility or who does the job. Some repair depots removed butt plates from stocks and perform thorough job some don't. The evidence is in the shellack and the way its applied. Some facilities just slather shellack on the stock without removing it from rifle, evrything gets covered cross bolt and even bayonette. That's how we get those golden bayos by the way. And if one looks in the bayo cutout of the stock and its even possible to cont how many layers of shellack that particular stock received in its lifetime. As the cut out rarely gets its share. That's why some have epd butt plates some don't.

 

[Boris Badinov]

How can you guys call yourself experts when this is such simple common knowledge...

Later production SKS rifles received factory Epd butt plates, there is NO conjecture about this. (I believe it is mid 1954-onward, though I’d have to double check.)

This is in NO way a sign of refurb.

It is fact.

I have never referred to myself as an expert. Not once. Ever.

This may be a 'fact' in Canada (doubtful). But it is demonstrably false with regards to the US imports.

If it is true for the Canadian imports (again, it seems fairly dubious), then it is far more likely a 'fact' that it is further evidence of exporter or importer handiwork...or..rearsenal

 

[Boris Badinov]

There are many epd parts on SKS right from factory as they can not be stamped with serial number due to their nature. Rear sight needs to be precise, can't be stamped, piston and gas tube are round, extractor is too small. Then why ep butt plate for?
If one looks at the stock and butt plate, and compares to another stock and butt plate they are not the same. They may look similar, however they are not interchangeable, Their curvature varies from stock to stock.

Now lets say bunch of issued new sks at the repair depot needs of refinishing stocks because wood is getting bare. This is in manual I believe, shellack should be applied at certain intervals, as simple maintenance. so If butt plate removed from its original stock and mixed with other butt plates, its going to be nightmare to match them up without serial number. That's why before removing butt plate for reshellacking of the stock it gets epd stock's serial number, in order to avoid mix up. That's one of the signs of refurbishment process or maintenance.

Then how come some butt plates have the serial number, some don't?
It all depends on facility or who does the job. Some repair depots removed butt plates from stocks and perform thorough job some don't. The evidence is in the shellack and the way its applied. Some facilities just slather shellack on the stock without removing it from rifle, evrything gets covered cross bolt and even bayonette. That's how we get those golden bayos by the way. And if one looks in the bayo cutout of the stock and its even possible to cont how many layers of shellack that particular stock received in its lifetime. As the cut out rarely gets its share. That's why some have epd butt plates some don't.

More excellent points.

Very shrewd inductive reasoning.

Thanks

 

[pcvando]

There are many epd parts on SKS right from factory as they can not be stamped with serial number due to their nature. Rear sight needs to be precise, can't be stamped, piston and gas tube are round, extractor is too small. Then why ep butt plate for?
If one looks at the stock and butt plate, and compares to another stock and butt plate they are not the same. They may look similar, however they are not interchangeable, Their curvature varies from stock to stock.

Now lets say bunch of issued new sks at the repair depot needs of refinishing stocks because wood is getting bare. This is in manual I believe, shellack should be applied at certain intervals, as simple maintenance. so If butt plate removed from its original stock and mixed with other butt plates, its going to be nightmare to match them up without serial number. That's why before removing butt plate for reshellacking of the stock it gets epd stock's serial number, in order to avoid mix up. That's one of the signs of refurbishment process or maintenance.

Then how come some butt plates have the serial number, some don't?
It all depends on facility or who does the job. Some repair depots removed butt plates from stocks and perform thorough job some don't. The evidence is in the shellack and the way its applied. Some facilities just slather shellack on the stock without removing it from rifle, evrything gets covered cross bolt and even bayonette. That's how we get those golden bayos by the way. And if one looks in the bayo cutout of the stock and its even possible to cont how many layers of shellack that particular stock received in its lifetime. As the cut out rarely gets its share. That's why some have epd butt plates some don't.

You actually believe this?

Seriously?

Let me tell you something, an EP machine leaves handwriting characteristics much like if it were a pencil, and whoever wrote the EP on the gas tube, rear sight base and piston wrote the same number on the butt.

This is very easy to tell.

I am just dumbfounded by the amount of crap that is being said in this thread.

Let me say this again: mid-1954 onwards received EPd butt plates.

And @Boris, when you say the US imports don’t have this, I’d wager it is YOUR US rifles that have been refurbished.

 

[pcvando]

@gewehr76...

Please explain how the same person that serialized the gas tube, rear sight and pistol ...

ALSO

happened to be the same guy that refurbished the rifle and EP’d the butt plate years later?

Want the simple answer?

He didn’t.

The fact: SKS butt plates were factory EPd due to their thickness. It’s in the Soviet manual of the production of small arms anyhow but you clearly don’t do any research.

 

[Boris Badinov]

You actually believe this?

Seriously?

Let me tell you something, an EP machine leaves handwriting characteristics much like if it were a pencil, and whoever wrote the EP on the gas tube, rear sight base and piston wrote the same number on the butt.

This is very easy to tell.

Ah. So, you're a handwriting expert now, too?

I am just dumbfounded by the amount of crap that is being said in this thread.

Finally, something we can agree on.

Let me say this again: mid-1954 onwards received EPd butt plates.
And @Boris, when you say the US imports don’t have this, I’d wager it is YOUR US rifles that have been refurbished.

I did not say that US imports. dont have ep'd stock plates. I'm saying that there is no evidence among the US imports that EP'd plates were the standard after 1954. In fact, observation suggests no such thing, and would indicate that the blank stock plates are a more likely standard. It also lends some weight to the suggestion that ep'd stockplates may very well be another indication of post-production handiwork (i.e. not original, not as-issued, and refurbed to some extent).

Near pristine examples exist in the US with both ep's on the plate and blank plates. Therefore it it is inconclusive.

 

[pcvando]

Ah. So, you're a handwriting expert now, too?


Finally, something we can agree on.



I did not say that US imports. dont have ep'd stock plates. I'm saying that there is no evidence among the US imports that EP'd plates were the standard after 1954. In fact, observation suggests no such thing, and would indicate that the blank stock plates are a more likely standard.

Near pristine examples exist in the US with both ep's on the plate and blank plates. Therefore it it is inconclusive.

Not a handwriting expert but a relative of mine that collects SKS rifles was an RCMP forensic handwriting expert for over 30 years. This person is standing beside me. (Literally)

I showed them after reading the comments and they agree...

Whoever EPd the components on this rifle ALSO EPd the butt plate. Same hand did it.

If you cannot see this, please leave it to the experts. It doesn’t even take much to notice his characteristics.

 

[Boris Badinov]

Not a handwriting expert but a relative of mine that collects SKS rifles was an RCMP forensic handwriting expert for over 30 years. This person is standing beside me. (Literally)

I showed them after reading the comments and they agree...

Whoever EPd the components on this rifle ALSO EPd the butt plate. Same hand did it.

If you cannot see this, please leave it to the experts. It doesn’t even take much to notice his characteristics.

I didn't say they weren't similar.

I asked if you were a handwriting expert. It was a rhetorical question. A cursory examination of your typewritten words reveals the incontrovertible fact that you are not.

You have demonstrated neither a grasp of nor the capacity for an acute attention to detail and inductive reasoning.

Yes, they are similar. But if a strong possibility exists that the ep on the stockplate is a refurb indicator, than it would follow that the similar scripts on the gas tube and piston were also applied during refurb.

 

[pcvando]

I didn't say they weren't similar.

I asked if you were a handwriting expert. It was a rhetorical question. A cursory examination of your typewritten words reveals the incontrovertible fact that you are not.

You haven't demonstrated the capacity for an accute attention to detail and inductive reasoning.

Yes, they are similar. But if a strong possibility exists that the ep on the stockplate is a refurb indicator, than it would follow that the similar scripts on the gas tube and piston were also applied during refurb.

LOL.

I try my best to be coherent and grammatically correct... but I am using my phone.

I don’t have the luxury of the desktop command centre you are clearly utilizing. Keyboard warrior. I bet you feel special.

 

[Boris Badinov]

LOL.

I try my best to be coherent and grammatically correct... but I am using my phone.

I don’t have the luxury of the desktop command centre you are clearly utilizing. Keyboard warrior. I bet you feel special.

I never said you weren't coherent or grammatically correct.

There is no problem making sense of what you say. It's just that much of what you say doesn't make any sense.

No command center, here. In fact, if the timestamp is before 10am its a safe bet that I am still in my UnderRoos. So, yeah, i feel special. And today I feel like spiderman.