That link takes the reader to quite a sales pitch. For the less well informed, marketing can exert a great deal of appeal. The expectation should be that if it's indeed a good rifle, with good ammo and a good shooter it will shoot better at 50 yards than further out -- just like any other rimfire rifle.
200 yard challenge
- Thread starter scuba52
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That link takes the reader to quite a sales pitch. For the less well informed, marketing can exert a great deal of appeal. The expectation should be that if it's indeed a good rifle, with good ammo and a good shooter it will shoot better at 50 yards than further out -- just like any other rimfire rifle.
Archie_james_c(2.0)
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My apologies. What I meant by “built for it” was more along the lines of just a very precisely built, custom/semi-custom .22 in general. Of course we know EagleEye is an excellent marksman, that practically goes with out saying
My comment was meant more like...”I would expect a Annie, 40X, Vudoo, etc to shoot exceptionally well (like EagleEye has done himself) given that they are very upper echelon Rimfires when compared to say a lowly factory T1X or Ruger Precision RF.”
Mystic Precision
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I wonder how that HCR rifle would group if there were 5 groups of 3rds each on the same piece of paper?
how it would group if there were 3 groups of 5rds.... or 2 groups of 10 rds on the same target?
then curious to know what 'good results at 300yds' means????
Jerry
how it would group if there were 3 groups of 5rds.... or 2 groups of 10 rds on the same target?
then curious to know what 'good results at 300yds' means????
Jerry
Archie_james_c(2.0)
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Can’t understand why Vudoo has other guys slapping their rifles into a stock and calling them their own.
Mystic Precision
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With the support you now have, if the rifle and ammo are capable, you will be able to shoot groups that small.
I am just curious to see if there are any posted results with more groups on the same target?
Jerry
It goes without saying that if a rifle and the ammo are both capable, good things are possible. More specifically, to what kind of "support" are you referring? Mechanical support for the rifle, such as bipods, front rests etc.? Ballistics calculators like a Kestrel? Something else?
hes referencing the Mpod. beautiful front bipod for shooting. and rock solid.
Mystic Precision
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Shooting groups so front and rear rests that work well... in his case an MPOD and good rear bag.
Unfortunately, we live in the world where 'performance' is in the eye of the beholder. Wouldn't it be great to establish standards that the industry would follow?
Jerry
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It is a nice bipod. Lightweight too. I had one.
Indeed.
Regarding the eye of the beholder, it would be good to have standards so that "performance" is not arbitrarily defined or that terms used in one way for decades with regard to .22LR shooting are not misappropriated and applied to shooting disciplines that didn't exist when those terms gained their meaning and currency. While shooters are more familiar with what defines accuracy and precision at 50 or 100 yards, it seems less clear how to define it at 200 yards and beyond. Perhaps it's not simply etymologically unsuitable to freely use terms like precision and accuracy in long range .22LR shooting, when such terms more aptly belong to ranges for which the round was developed.
What stock is that?
Mystic Precision
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That is the new Bergara rimfire rifle.... all factory
Jerry
Jerry
This was the point of this post in the first place. I agree shooting a 22 to 300 yards is not exactly precision, to me it is acceptable accuracy given the limitations. You and I got into a debate about this earlier in the summer, so let’s see what people can work up was my thought. I know a couple of members on here who can hit consistently at 400 yards, I have been very successful at 300 plus yards on a 2/3 ipsc (about 2/3 human chest and head) size target. But I want to see how low I can go. 84wankel and I have used up many bricks of ammo on 1 1/2 or 2 inch targets at 200 which is a great afternoon.
So let’s decide what is acceptable through targets. We can see what the tikkas and cz can do then what Annie and vudoo can do and go from there.
If we could get some targets, or video up we could have a real conversation about can be done vs what can’t, there is no better way to solve this like proof.
To me and my little bit of knowledge if someone can smack a 2 inch piece of steel at 200 at will, there is A very good chance of 6 inch or better at 300. Pretty darn accurate (given the parameters)is it benchrest accuracy, not your definition, acceptable to me.
So let’s see what can be done
They have a couple of videos of two guys shooting steel, not the kind of stuff that would make me want to pay their price tag. Especially since it is essentially a vudoo with a bedding job. Target does seem cherrypicked
Mystic Precision
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With rimfire, accuracy is greatly limited by the ammo.
And there is usually a 'prize' in every box.
But hopefully, demand will create new products... and better solutions.
WRT to accuracy at LR, I take the position that rimfire is like shooting centerfire at much further distances. It has been suggested that 100, 200 and 300 yds with a 22lr is equivalent to a 308 at 300, 600 and 1000yds respectively.
A 308 shooting 'factory match ammo' would do very well at 1/2 MOA 300, 3/4 MOA at 600 and MOA at 1000. If you agree with that analogy, the performance we are getting with 22lr is pretty darn close to the same.
the goal is to figure out how to do better... Today, sub 1" at 100yds... 2" to 3" at 200 is no problem..
for many platforms, holding 10" at 300yds in calm air is very challenging. Getting 12" consistent hits at distance beyond? So far, it has been more luck then design... NOTE, I am not talking about the hero group but on demand taking wind into account.... take the shot and hit the target every time.... no mulligans, count every shot.
But these are very early days in this new game.....
Jerry
And there is usually a 'prize' in every box.
But hopefully, demand will create new products... and better solutions.
WRT to accuracy at LR, I take the position that rimfire is like shooting centerfire at much further distances. It has been suggested that 100, 200 and 300 yds with a 22lr is equivalent to a 308 at 300, 600 and 1000yds respectively.
A 308 shooting 'factory match ammo' would do very well at 1/2 MOA 300, 3/4 MOA at 600 and MOA at 1000. If you agree with that analogy, the performance we are getting with 22lr is pretty darn close to the same.
the goal is to figure out how to do better... Today, sub 1" at 100yds... 2" to 3" at 200 is no problem..
for many platforms, holding 10" at 300yds in calm air is very challenging. Getting 12" consistent hits at distance beyond? So far, it has been more luck then design... NOTE, I am not talking about the hero group but on demand taking wind into account.... take the shot and hit the target every time.... no mulligans, count every shot.
But these are very early days in this new game.....
Jerry
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The .22LR and .308 Win. analogy has been made many times. A chart such as the one from 2008 below illustrates the comparison.
The challenge of shooting .22LR well at distances of 100 yards and more may be a little more challenging than described. Shooting sub-MOA consistently at 100 yards is not the same as shooting sub-MOA at 50 yards. That is to say, if a shooter/rifle can't do significantly better than sub-.5" at 50 yards, there is little reason to believe that the shooter and rifle can shoot sub-MOA at 100 yards. Why? While the geometry says that a sub-MOA group at 50 is sub-MOA at 100, actual shooting results with .22LR do not agree with the basic rules of geometry for a few reasons.
First, unless there is flawless execution of each shot at any range, any errors, whether shooter-induced, rifle-induced, ammo induced, or any combination of them will add to the geometric doubling of group size. Even if the shooter executes his shot perfectly each time and the rifle has no flaws that contribute to inconsistency of results, ammo variation alone leaves a larger footprint in group size at 100 yards (and more so further out) than it does at closer ranges. Put another way, an MV difference of 10 fps between rounds causes increasingly more drop for the slower round than the faster one -- that is, the drop rate more than doubles as distance doubles.
To illustrate, a 10 fps difference in MV causes the slower round to drop 0.0677" more at 50 yards; at 100 it will drop 0.2627" more; at 200 it will drop 1.0135" more; and at 300 yards it will drop 2.2497" inches more. Below are the numbers generated by a ballistics calculator that produce those figures.
With a 20 fps difference in MV between rounds results in the slower round to drop 0.1384" more than the faster one; at 100 yards it will drop .5378" more; at 200 it will drop 2.0796" more; and at 300 yards it will drop 4.6248" more.
With very good ammo, that is ammo with an ES of no more than 20 fps, and if everything else is perfect, then its possible to shoot groups as small as 2" at 200 yards. Of course, that requires perfect shot execution, a complete absence of wind or air movement while shooting, and no significant atmospheric conditions that will have greater effect as distance increases, such as higher air density.
On top of that, a perfect bore is necessary, one that is capable of repeatable pinpoint accuracy. If a bore has minute imperfections that contribute to anything other than perfect accuracy, the math and theoretical ballistic results produced by a ballistic calculator are no longer reliable.
The long and the short of it is that to shoot very well at distances like 200 yards, it is necessary to have very good ammo, a very good rifle, and very good shooting skills. Shortcomings in any one of these, or worse in a combination of these, renders it very, very difficult to shoot small groups as distance increases.
To be sure, there are instances when some very small groups are indeed recorded at 200 yards. But they don't happen very often because we'd see them. They certainly are unlikely to be done on demand, even when conditions are ideal. Just as it's possible to shoot what is literally a one-hole group that measures in the hundredths at 50 yards, it's possible to record similarly extraordinary groups with the right ammo at four times the distance.
As a result on occasion a few shooters happen to enjoy a fortuitous set of circumstances coming together producing a very small group at 200 yards. The rest of the time, these very skilful shooters, with their very good ammo, and very good rifles shoot what should be recognized as very good results with 2-3" groups at 200 yards. These are indeed possible. To describe shooting such groups as "no problem" is misleading. Not many shooters can do that.
It's not clear what changes or new products any new demand can cause to emerge that will result in better solutions to long distance shooting. Better rifles than currently available? Perhaps, but it seems unlikely there's some magic that hasn't already been considered by rifle and barrel makers. Better ammo than is currently available? That's been the challenge that .22LR ammo makers have been pursuing for decades without significant breakthroughs thus far. Something else perhaps? It's reassuring to imagine something coming along to improve long distance .22LR shooting results, but hopes should be tempered by what's currently available. With that in mind, shooters should continue to seek out the best ammo available, find the best rifle/barrel they can afford, and practice as often as possible.
Mystic Precision
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With an agreement on the relative performance of rimfire to centerfire, then the accuracy of 22lr has to be taken in that context. To use factory ammo and get the results we are seeing, pretty darn impressive.
Maybe these are the practical limits of the 22LR?
however, my testing and development hints there may be more to discover. And applying my ideas in competition has certainly lead to positive results. Beyond theory, I like to do as much real world and peer to peer testing. There is alot of chatter on the internet, however, far fewer 'facts' work out in the real world.
Waiting for the temps to get much higher to put many test groups down range.
The one thing I know for sure, deciding anything about rimfire performance based on 1 group is likely not going to end well.
Come on spring....
Jerry
Maybe these are the practical limits of the 22LR?
however, my testing and development hints there may be more to discover. And applying my ideas in competition has certainly lead to positive results. Beyond theory, I like to do as much real world and peer to peer testing. There is alot of chatter on the internet, however, far fewer 'facts' work out in the real world.
Waiting for the temps to get much higher to put many test groups down range.
The one thing I know for sure, deciding anything about rimfire performance based on 1 group is likely not going to end well.
Come on spring....
Jerry
