.223 or .308?

Haagen_Dazs

Haagen_Dazs

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Hey guys and gals quick question:


Im looking into buying a precision target rifle that I can push to the limits (range-wise).

On average, what kinds of ranges can a .223 round get in comparison to a .308?



Thanks!
 
After 1 mile, I quit going any further.

Article on my 223 journey can be found on my website in the rifle tech.

Anything a 308 can do a 223 can match.

then there things a 223 can do that a standard 308 can't.

Jerry
 
They are ballistic twins.223 is cheaper to shoot. However 223 is a more challenging cartridge to load for, as it is much smaller than 308 any variation in loads has a greater effect on accuracy.
 
Very interesting, now Im not sure I want a 308 any more, but I guess it will end up saving me money =D

Thanks for the help, Ill be sure to read the article Mystic!
 
This is all assuming you have a fast enough twist .223 to shoot at least 69grain bullets. 1-9 I would suggest as a minimum twist if you want the .223 to match a .308 with a 1-12 or 1-10 twist. A 1-12 twist in a .223 won't stabilize the heavy bullets that everyone is talking about for matching the .308.
 
.223 AT LEAST a 1-8" twist, maybe a 1-7" if you want to play with the 90gr Bergers or Sierra's...

FWIW it won't be cheaper in the end to shoot, because you will shoot it 3 times as much :) There's no substitute for trigger time though...
 
IF you are reloading and getting a custom rifle made, or even a factory Savage F class look into a 6mmBR. The brass and dies might cost more, but once those are bought and paid for it cost about the same to shoot as a 223 and will kick its pants off as far as accuracy and long range capabilities are concerned.

Just thought I would throw a monkey in the wrench.

That being said, 223 is a great caliber to learn with. I started off with one and so did a few other guys I know.
 
Start with a 223 and then move on to a 308 and start reloading. Probably the best bet considering I will probably not want to spend $3000 for a starting rifle that I would keep indefinitly...
 
Do you want to shoot in F-Class competitions? If so, F/TR is .223 and .308 ONLY, anything else is F-Open and you'll be competing against some pretty serious iron driven by very skilled operators.

There are five guys locally that shoot .223 at Connaught, and the F/TR class at the last match was won by a guy with a .223. Distances were 300,600,900m.

You'll have to reload as you can't buy .223 ammo that will work. The .223 is not overly difficult to load for, but you'll need an accurate scale and have to keep your charge weights as tight as you can.

At distance, you need to go with 80 and 90 Gr bullets. All of our local guys are using Berger 90 Gr VLDs and having great success. The 7 twist seems to be ideal for the 90 Berger, one of the local guys recently completed a custom build with a 7.7 twist and had no luck with the 90Gr VLD, he has since reverted to 80 Gr bullets.

Your cost per round will be lower with a .223 than a .308, and you can shoot all day without recoil being an issue. I have no regrets getting into the game with a .223.

The info on the MysticPrecision website is a real eye opener, and Jerry has been a great guy in terms of providing me with both toys and advice.

And no, you won't save any money, you'll just shoot more ;-)
 
MP, if you compare ballistics of the 223 and 90gr VLD vs the 6BR and 105gr VLD -guess what? The 223 WINS !!!

It's all about the bullets. Velocity with either is very similar but the 90gr Berger VLD has a higher BC then ANY Berger 6mm VLD bullet.

Surprised? I know I was.

HD, if you start with the 223 and go with a 7 twist and 90gr Berger VLD, you will be in excellent company for a very long time. When are you ready to look at something with better ballistics, you will enter the realm of the 6.5, 7mm and 338's

But these will all cost more, kick more.

All we need is a new high energy powder for the 223 and there will not be a 308 in F TR.

Jerry
 
MagnumPeanut said:
IF you are reloading and getting a custom rifle made, or even a factory Savage F class look into a 6mmBR. The brass and dies might cost more, but once those are bought and paid for it cost about the same to shoot as a 223 and will kick its pants off as far as accuracy and long range capabilities are concerned.

Just thought I would throw a monkey in the wrench.

That being said, 223 is a great caliber to learn with. I started off with one and so did a few other guys I know.
Click to expand...

About kicking pants off, you had better have your belt tight if your up against a 223 rem shootng 90gr JLK or Berger bullets, check out the BC,s of 80 & 107 gr 6mm bergers, your about 50 to 100 less BC,s and at long distances higher BCs are better.
The 6mmbr is great to 600 hard to beat but remember in F class you will be shooting against the big boys 6./284, 7mm, tyhe big 300 cal
 
mysticplayer said:
MP, if you compare ballistics of the 223 and 90gr VLD vs the 6BR and 105gr VLD -guess what? The 223 WINS !!!

It's all about the bullets. Velocity with either is very similar but the 90gr Berger VLD has a higher BC then ANY Berger 6mm VLD bullet.

Surprised? I know I was.

HD, if you start with the 223 and go with a 7 twist and 90gr Berger VLD, you will be in excellent company for a very long time. When are you ready to look at something with better ballistics, you will enter the realm of the 6.5, 7mm and 338's

But these will all cost more, kick more.

All we need is a new high energy powder for the 223 and there will not be a 308 in F TR.

Jerry
Click to expand...

I dunno about this one man. I don't mean to call you out on this but I think you are mistaken.

223 with 90g bullet has a max muzzle velocity of 2447, lets say 2500 for a hot load
6mmBR with 105g Berger VLD get around 2900, so lets say 2800 for fun.

0.551 for the 90gr Match 22cal VLD
0.493 (sux now, used to be 0.556) Lets remember Scenars are still .530!

Numbers from JBM

6mmBR 105g Berger Match VLD
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2805.8
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.6 0.6 2634.9
200 -3.5 -1.7 2.5 1.2 2469.7
300 -12. -4.1 5.8 1.8 2310.4
400 -28.5 -6.8 10.6 2.5 2157.4
500 -51.7 -9.9 17.1 3.3 2010.4
600 -83.5 -13.3 25.6 4.1 1868.9
700 -125.3 -17.1 36.1 4.9 1732.3
800 -178.8 -21.3 49.0 5.8 1600.1
900 -245.8 -26.1 64.6 6.9 1472.4
1000-328.9 -31.4 83.2 7.9 1349.7

223 Match VLD
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2505.3
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.7 0.7 2349.7
200 -4.8 -2.3 2.8 1.4 2200.0
300 -16.8 -5.3 6.6 2.1 2056.0
400 -37.0 -8.8 12.1 2.9 1917.4
500 -66.7 -12.7 19.6 3.7 1783.4
600 -107.4 -17.1 29.3 4.7 1653.8
700 -160.8 -21.9 41.4 5.6 1528.3
800 -229.1 -27.3 56.3 6.7 1407.2
900 -315.0 -33.4 74.4 7.9 1291.2
1000 -421.9 -40.3 96.1 9.2 1181.3


That sir is a HUGE frikken difference. I realize these charts are not 100% accurate but the numbers are complete opposites. And this is assuming you have a light 6mmBR load and a heavy 223 load. That and everybody that shoots a 6mmBR knows how accurate the cartridge at 600-1000 yards. I can't see any 223 being that great.
One also has to remember that the 90gr Bergers are an extremely long bullet and a lot of barrels refuse to stabilize the 90s or even the 80s. I couldn't stabilize the 80s in a 1-8 twist 30in barrel to save my life. Others have done it in a 1-9 so it seems a bit finicky once you go that heavy.

All this typing just to justify my stance on the 6mmBR.
 
MagnumPeanut said:
I dunno about this one man. I don't mean to call you out on this but I think you are mistaken.

223 with 90g bullet has a max muzzle velocity of 2447, lets say 2500 for a hot load
Click to expand...

Sorry, but most of us are reaching 2800+fps with the 223 and 90's. And we are not trying to find a higher purpose either. I went over 2600fps in a 22" barrel with the OAL set to feed in my Savage mag.

In a single shot situation, most will find an OAL around 2.60" to be about right. Yep, almost as long as a 308 mag.

MagnumPeanut said:
One also has to remember that the 90gr Bergers are an extremely long bullet and a lot of barrels refuse to stabilize the 90s or even the 80s. I couldn't stabilize the 80s in a 1-8 twist 30in barrel to save my life. Others have done it in a 1-9 so it seems a bit finicky once you go that heavy.

All this typing just to justify my stance on the 6mmBR.
Click to expand...

Sure hope it wasn't a barrel from me cause all true 8 twist barrels will stabilize a 80gr VLD without issue. My 22" 8 twist Shilen will stabilize the 90gr Bergers at a slow 2600+fps and I stopped at 1200ish yds cause it was not going to tumble.

From all the shooters I have conversed with on the 223 issue, none have had any issues stabilizing the heavier bullets with the right twist. Problem is that what is printed on the side of the box may not be what is machined into the pipe.

If new high energy powders get released (plant is being built in the US as we speak), it is theoretically possible to push the 90's into the 2900fps.

Now that is some fun....

Jerry
 
2 Questions:

Have there ever meen issues of people not being able to fit the 90gr 223 cartridges inside thier box maxs due to the OAL?

Also, is it possible to but 90gr bullets pre-manufactured or would I need to buy some 55gr AR stuff, use it, and then customly reload it? If it is possible to buy, how much would it cost?


Thanks again for the help guys!
 
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