I have to agree, a bad hit with a 375H&H is still going to result in a long tracking job or worst case scenario a wounded and lost animal!
Cat
300WM vs 308 what is the true difference?
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Cat
The differences are not nearly as simple as you have written here.
308 can kill anything in N America. The difference would be in how far away each one would be effective.
The Catch-22 with the 300WM is that in order to take advantage of the increased range and power, one must practice at long range A LOT. The considerably higher recoil of the WM makes it no fun at all to practice with. A boomer like the WM will slow and hamper the development of marksmanship skills and long range experience because it tends to kick the sh!t out of the user.
308 can be effective out to 1200 yds but that requires the use of specialty bullets and max pressure loads and other tricks.
You won't.
If "the best thing" about a cartridge is that it can be downloaded to match another cartridge, then the smart though would be to just buy the real thing, not the thing that can emulate the real thing.
THIS!
EXACTLY THIS!
Far too many people don't have the marksmanship skills and think that power can make up for a lack of skills / experience. It can't.
No offense taken. Nonetheless, it was not my intent to endorse being a lazier marksmanship rather to indicate there is some decreased variability in how quickly an animal succumbs to their injuries in whatever powerful caliber, especially in condition extremes such as long distance and low light/visibility. They will die eventually to all calibers its just a question how humane you should be and if you actually intend to recover the game.
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308 really starts being interesting when you neck it down to 22.
I built this guy while I was waiting for my Sig Cross Magnum to cross the border.
It's a Bergara B14 HMR .300WM in an MDT HNT26 chassis with barrel cut down to 18" with an MDT Comp Brake installed. Weighs in at 9lbs even. Absolutely no punishment shooting this with the MDT Comp Brake installed. Before everyone chimes in that I turned a .300WM into a glorified .30-06; the velocity losses were actually nowhere near as bad as what I was expecting. Can still push 180gr pills to near 2900fps, but super handy to haul around, which was my goal when building it.
It's a Bergara B14 HMR .300WM in an MDT HNT26 chassis with barrel cut down to 18" with an MDT Comp Brake installed. Weighs in at 9lbs even. Absolutely no punishment shooting this with the MDT Comp Brake installed. Before everyone chimes in that I turned a .300WM into a glorified .30-06; the velocity losses were actually nowhere near as bad as what I was expecting. Can still push 180gr pills to near 2900fps, but super handy to haul around, which was my goal when building it.
Mixed feelings on that, a 300 Win at nearly 2900 fps is definitely dehorned a bit; but its still way more than a 308 than a equally short barrelled 308. It’s not that hard to get 32 plus out of a 26” barrelled 300 Winny.
Just to play devil’s advocate a bit. Nobody can argue that shot placement trumps everything, and that horse-power is a poor substitute for that. Trouble is; poor substitute or not, once that bullet is in the air it’s the only substitute there is. Live long enough and you’re going to get some sloppy hits, and your chances when that happens go way up when you rip a wound channel the size of your head through something. Sue me.
I don’t hate 308s and I don’t don’t hate 30-06s. Hell; I have about 5 of each at any given time. Thng is neither one is a 300 Win, they just aren’t. For proof; I’ll submit a question. Which one of you guys believes their rifles kill better at long range than short?
I don’t hate 308s and I don’t don’t hate 30-06s. Hell; I have about 5 of each at any given time. Thng is neither one is a 300 Win, they just aren’t. For proof; I’ll submit a question. Which one of you guys believes their rifles kill better at long range than short?
Flat out disagree with that statement. Effective at 1200 yards? In what regard? Punching holes in paper? Personally think shooting at any big game animal with ANY cartridge at those kinds of distances is unethical at best.
I find the 300s easier to hit with at long range than a 308. They are just better in the wind than a 308, and there’s not much use talking about long range without talking about wind. For simple math, cut your wind drift in half and every mistake you make is half as bad. Or; from the point of a hunter you can just about double the distance you can shoot while not compensating for wind at all, or knowing anything at all about it. Sort of like MPBR, only sideways. Lots of free talent there for a bit of powder. We shoot FTR together with F Open, and the 308 guys know they showed up with the worst cartridge there, unless some sucker for punishment shows up with a 223. If there wasn’t a protected class for them there wouldn’t be a single one there.
This all makes sense to me, but the problem is people will look at the numbers and decide they simply must have a .300 Win... and then they buy a 7-8 lb rifle with no brake, and now they can't take advantage of the cartridge's ballistic superiority because the recoil makes it impossible for them to shoot well. The answer for these folks is use a cartridge & rifle you can comfortably shoot, whether that means adding weight and/or a brake to a .300 Win or choosing a .308.I find the 300s easier to hit with at long range than a 308. They are just better in the wind than a 308, and there’s not much use talking about long range without talking about wind. For simple math, cut your wind drift in half and every mistake you make is half as bad. Or; from the point of a hunter you can just about double the distance you can shoot while not compensating for wind at all, or knowing anything at all about it. Sort of like MPBR, only sideways. Lots of free talent there for a bit of powder. We shoot FTR together with F Open, and the 308 guys know they showed up with the worst cartridge there, unless some sucker for punishment shows up with a 223. If there wasn’t a protected class for them there wouldn’t be a single one there.
Can't have everything.
There's 2 cal's that are against my religion to own. They have never and will never enter the door of my house.
308 and 30-06.
My personal vendetta goes way back to when I was 12. All I heard growing up was how the 308 was the BEST caliber ever. My little 243 and 270 sucked, don't even come hunting with us if your bringing one of those. Nothing could beat it. It was god's gift to the world. Then that turned into the same thing with the 30-06, its the BEST, every other rifle SUCKS if it isn't a 30-06. Ever since then, I refuse to own one. You could give me the worlds most expensive 308 or 30-06 and i'd use em for a boat anchor.
If i'm buying a 30 cal, its a magnum. No bones about it. And if I NEED a magnum i'm probably in the Yukon, Africa or somewhere where dangerous game are a concern so i'm likely jumping the 30 cal selection and going 338 Win Mag or RUM or maybe even 375 H&H.
For strictly deer, moose and elk hunting under 400 yards (95% of peoples hunting), gimme a 270. For anything past 400 yards, i'll bring my 7 PRC. At least with those I won't have to aim at the sun to hit a deer past 250 yards
308 and 30-06.
My personal vendetta goes way back to when I was 12. All I heard growing up was how the 308 was the BEST caliber ever. My little 243 and 270 sucked, don't even come hunting with us if your bringing one of those. Nothing could beat it. It was god's gift to the world. Then that turned into the same thing with the 30-06, its the BEST, every other rifle SUCKS if it isn't a 30-06. Ever since then, I refuse to own one. You could give me the worlds most expensive 308 or 30-06 and i'd use em for a boat anchor.
If i'm buying a 30 cal, its a magnum. No bones about it. And if I NEED a magnum i'm probably in the Yukon, Africa or somewhere where dangerous game are a concern so i'm likely jumping the 30 cal selection and going 338 Win Mag or RUM or maybe even 375 H&H.
For strictly deer, moose and elk hunting under 400 yards (95% of peoples hunting), gimme a 270. For anything past 400 yards, i'll bring my 7 PRC. At least with those I won't have to aim at the sun to hit a deer past 250 yards
difference I see, being a quarter way into 21st century now the bullet availability such that even the 308 can have excellent killy factory ammo off the shelf past where most can shoot, ie; 168gr whitebox eldm match has over 1700 fps impact past 600 yards at 3000' from a 20" barrel
barrel life (308 unlimited)
recoil, blast, noise (shoot ability, more of population will shoot it better - advantage 308)
action length (short action 308)
universal cartridge vs more specialized
the advantages or disadvantages aren't in killy factor imo, considering a 6cm is being used with factory 108 eldm to kill elk to 1000 and flatten them, even a 22 arc with 88 eldm showing up doing things that don't make sense to those not far enough up the available knowledge curve, those are not the arguments to have as bullets matter, not diameter, not headstamps so one just look at the other factors and choose what they want...it's easy
barrel life (308 unlimited)
recoil, blast, noise (shoot ability, more of population will shoot it better - advantage 308)
action length (short action 308)
universal cartridge vs more specialized
the advantages or disadvantages aren't in killy factor imo, considering a 6cm is being used with factory 108 eldm to kill elk to 1000 and flatten them, even a 22 arc with 88 eldm showing up doing things that don't make sense to those not far enough up the available knowledge curve, those are not the arguments to have as bullets matter, not diameter, not headstamps so one just look at the other factors and choose what they want...it's easy
Totally agree, see it all the time on the line!We shoot FTR together with F Open, and the 308 guys know they showed up with the worst cartridge there, unless some sucker for punishment shows up with a 223. If there wasn’t a protected class for them there wouldn’t be a single one there.
Jeepers if the allowed other calibers/cartridges in TR My 223's would get turned into 6mmBR's in a New York minute!
Cat
For my hunting use I like the 300win for areas I expect to take long shots, of not long range area I tend to carry my 308win or even my 7.62x39. If going for Moose or I think Grizzlys could be a problem I'm more likely to carry my 338win. I have all four cartridges in Ruger M77 rifles. Of the above I've shot the most animals with 338win but recently I've been doing more bush hunting in non bear areas so the 7.62x39 has a been getting some use.
My style of hunting and rifle preference limits me to about 375 yards max, my cartridge of choice is the .303 Brit which I drive at right around 308 Win velocities. It works just fine for moose and deer
Cat
I’ve no problem with people staying within their limits, whether its range, recoil, expense, weight or anything else. What I don’t do is assume I know any of those limits for them, or that they can’t improve in any or all of those areas. Heck, I assume that anyone can learn to shoot because I don’t think on the grand scheme of things shooting is particularly hard. Not hard like learning to play a musical instrument for instance. (Paraphrasing Col Jeff Cooper there
) Did you know there’s 88 triggers on a piano? Learning to manage one is about all a hunter needs to do to have productive hunting lifetime. People also come in different temperments. Some people ride bulls, race moto-cross, ride sleds, climb into rings and punch each other in the heads, play football or rugby, and claim its fun sport. Either they decided pain doesn’t hurt, manage it or actually enjoy it. Don’t know but they also accept that they can get seriously injured and probably will eventually. Oddly, most people don’t have any problem accepting that some people are tougher, or braver, (or bat#### crazy
) or just have higher pain thresolds than them. Then in contrast you get the shooters whose heart curls up in their chest when they confront a rifle that can barely bounce on a sandbag. That's most of them by the way. There’s something about guns that makes people project their limitations on everyone else. Not sure why, but some shrink could write a best seller on the topic.
