.308 Norinco Surp + my AR = :(

NavyCuda said:
If I ever manage to afford the SR25, I'm going to feed it a diet of norc ammo just to piss off the purists.
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I'm no purist, just don't know why anyone would intentionally ruin a nice rifle just to save a few dollars on ammo.
Feel free to run whatever you want but I'm tired of reading all these posts about people having problems with it.

Surprise... it's crap.
 
I wouldn't run crap Chinese ammo thru anything but a Chinese gun. Running an SR-25 with Chinese surp is like taking Kate Middleton to dinner at McDonalds.
 
shooterman said:
They are not copper jacketed. The copper " colouring" is only microns thick, not enough to protect the rifling. The bullet is steel with a tiny lead core to add to weight. If you want to remove the rifling in your barrel keep using this ammo.
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Talked to multiple retailers and dealers who strongly disagree with this and vouch with evidence.

Taken from "Military Arms Channel"

" I get asked all the time "will bi-metal bullets harm my bore". The answer is no, they won't. Here's why.Hardened tool steel has a rockwell hardness of 650/700 Brinell. Mild steel has a hardness of 120/130. Bi-metal jackets are made from very soft mild steel. Bores/barrels are at least as hard as tool steel and when chrome plated are even harder.Steel jacketed bullets are nothing new. The US had steel jacketed bullets in WWII chambered in 30-06 and 45 ACP. The M1 ball and M2 AP rounds of the era used steel jackets over a lead core with a copper wash over the steel -- just like Wolf bi-metal bullets.Frankford Arsenal conducted a test with steel jacketed 30-06 rounds around 1946 to determine if the rumors that steel jacketed bullets damaged the barrels more than copper jacketed bullets were true. In their testing they found that steel jacketed bullets not only didn't accelerate wear but they also discovered for the first 1000 rounds steel jacketed rounds were actually more accurate! After 1000 rounds the accuracy leveled off to be comparable to the copper jacketed bullets but no evidence of accelerated wear was discovered through 8,000 rounds of testing on their samples.In short, bi-metal bullets do not do any more damage to your firearms than conventional copper jacketed rounds do. All the claims of chamber wear, throat erosion and barrel wear are unsubstantiated wives tales."
 
Ace604 don't try to through fact's or common sense into any Ammo drama while it is still in progress please. Salon Hair dryers, soap operas, fashion runways and ammo don't mix.
 
Wasn't really looking to start an ammo drama...

I had issues that had me questioning my rifle. As in, was it a finicky little princess that would only run quality factory and up ammo. It's still my opinion that to call a rifle good, it has to be reliable and the most reliable rifles eat any diet of any ammo in any condition.

The rest are civilian range guns.

Anyway, when I said I'm not running this crap ammo anymore it was in regards to this lot. It's obviously bad. Thanks to those that answered the questions asked, I figured that out.

I now know that the ammo (lot) is bad and it's not my gun. I also know not to pass it along to someone else because it's a crap lot. Had it been my gun at fault I would have.

I ordered another case and will run it through my barrel until my barrel is shot out and then I will put another (better) barrel on it.

I expect that to be years from now as I may fire 200-500 rounds a season through it.

Barrels are just another wear item part and I wish I was burning through them. It would mean I was spending more time doing what I like to do.
 
Since i am real busy with my restricteds, i choose one of my brand new restricted and feed it only a diet of copperwash, to see if it make a real difference once and for all, This AR-10 DPMS LR Panther HBAR all ready was feed 350 copperwash without a hiccup and accuracy aint bad at around 2 MOA...
Still have 2.5 K of the cooperwash stuff that will be only for this rifle...
Today at the range it should see another 150 rounds...
Just for the pleasure... JP.
SAM_3638_zps9d95d6b7.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
Ace604 said:
Talked to multiple retailers and dealers who strongly disagree with this and vouch with evidence.

Taken from "Military Arms Channel"

" I get asked all the time "will bi-metal bullets harm my bore". The answer is no, they won't. Here's why.Hardened tool steel has a rockwell hardness of 650/700 Brinell. Mild steel has a hardness of 120/130. Bi-metal jackets are made from very soft mild steel. Bores/barrels are at least as hard as tool steel and when chrome plated are even harder.Steel jacketed bullets are nothing new. The US had steel jacketed bullets in WWII chambered in 30-06 and 45 ACP. The M1 ball and M2 AP rounds of the era used steel jackets over a lead core with a copper wash over the steel -- just like Wolf bi-metal bullets.Frankford Arsenal conducted a test with steel jacketed 30-06 rounds around 1946 to determine if the rumors that steel jacketed bullets damaged the barrels more than copper jacketed bullets were true. In their testing they found that steel jacketed bullets not only didn't accelerate wear but they also discovered for the first 1000 rounds steel jacketed rounds were actually more accurate! After 1000 rounds the accuracy leveled off to be comparable to the copper jacketed bullets but no evidence of accelerated wear was discovered through 8,000 rounds of testing on their samples.In short, bi-metal bullets do not do any more damage to your firearms than conventional copper jacketed rounds do. All the claims of chamber wear, throat erosion and barrel wear are unsubstantiated wives tales."
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Typical barrels nowadays are made of 4140 chrome-moly steel with a hardness of 170-197 HB depending on amt of heat treating. They are NOT made of tool steel as that would make them unmachinable and brittle. Mild steel is around 120HB in hardness. Proof results here. Scroll down to barrel wear section.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/#bookmark4
 
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shooterman said:
Typical barrels nowadays are made of 4140 chrome-moly steel with a hardness of 170-197 HB depending on amt of heat treating. They are NOT made of tool steel as that would make them unmachinable and brittle. Mild steel is around 120HB in hardness. Proof results here. Scroll down to barrel wear section.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/#bookmark4
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Glad to see someone took the time to read the article I linked in the other crap ammo thread :)
Hard to argue with 4 new identical rifles run solely on one type of ammo then record failure rate and wear at the end of 10000 rounds.

Sure the Chinese bulk is cheap and it usually goes bang but most rifles are lucky to make a 4 inch group with it (some better). Considering the fact that there seems to be at least one new thread a week with someone having problems with it in their rifle I'll just stick to my good old reliable dirty bird which I've run at least 5000 rounds through a few different rifles without an ammo related failure. To each their own though, if you're happy with it then go ahead.
 
caramel said:
Since i am real busy with my restricteds, i choose one of my brand new restricted and feed it only a diet of copperwash, to see if it make a real difference once and for all, This AR-10 DPMS LR Panther HBAR all ready was feed 350 copperwash without a hiccup and accuracy aint bad at around 2 MOA...
Still have 2.5 K of the cooperwash stuff that will be only for this rifle...
Today at the range it should see another 150 rounds...
Just for the pleasure... JP.
SAM_3638_zps9d95d6b7.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
Click to expand...

Nice looking precision AR setup Caramel and look forward to hearing your reports on the condition changes going on in your controlled test barrel in regards to accuracy and throat/port and muzzle erosion. 2MOA sounds about right for the best this will do, I believe your rifle must be a very tight shooter, it's wringing out the very best from this ammo. 2MOA is about best accuracy for Canadian IvI 762NATO ball in any rifle for anyone needing a good bench mark comparison to put the Red762 up against. Good luck. Do you have a chrony to check velocities in the Panther barrel? I got 2804 avg in 22" M-14 @ 15 feet.
 
cr5 said:
Glad to see someone took the time to read the article I linked in the other crap ammo thread :)
Hard to argue with 4 new identical rifles run solely on one type of ammo then record failure rate and wear at the end of 10000 rounds.

Sure the Chinese bulk is cheap and it usually goes bang but most rifles are lucky to make a 4 inch group with it (some better). Considering the fact that there seems to be at least one new thread a week with someone having problems with it in their rifle I'll just stick to my good old reliable dirty bird which I've run at least 5000 rounds through a few different rifles without an ammo related failure. To each their own though, if you're happy with it then go ahead.
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X 2 and more.Right on! The eye opener was when the barrels were cut open to expose bullet wear on the chambers and rifling. This can not be ignored.
 
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Ace604 said:
Talked to multiple retailers and dealers who strongly disagree with this and vouch with evidence.

Taken from "Military Arms Channel"

" I get asked all the time "will bi-metal bullets harm my bore". The answer is no, they won't. Here's why.Hardened tool steel has a rockwell hardness of 650/700 Brinell. Mild steel has a hardness of 120/130. Bi-metal jackets are made from very soft mild steel. Bores/barrels are at least as hard as tool steel and when chrome plated are even harder.Steel jacketed bullets are nothing new. The US had steel jacketed bullets in WWII chambered in 30-06 and 45 ACP. The M1 ball and M2 AP rounds of the era used steel jackets over a lead core with a copper wash over the steel -- just like Wolf bi-metal bullets.Frankford Arsenal conducted a test with steel jacketed 30-06 rounds around 1946 to determine if the rumors that steel jacketed bullets damaged the barrels more than copper jacketed bullets were true. In their testing they found that steel jacketed bullets not only didn't accelerate wear but they also discovered for the first 1000 rounds steel jacketed rounds were actually more accurate! After 1000 rounds the accuracy leveled off to be comparable to the copper jacketed bullets but no evidence of accelerated wear was discovered through 8,000 rounds of testing on their samples.In short, bi-metal bullets do not do any more damage to your firearms than conventional copper jacketed rounds do. All the claims of chamber wear, throat erosion and barrel wear are unsubstantiated wives tales."
Click to expand...

Thanks for this.
 
shooterman said:
Typical barrels nowadays are made of 4140 chrome-moly steel with a hardness of 170-197 HB depending on amt of heat treating. They are NOT made of tool steel as that would make them unmachinable and brittle. Mild steel is around 120HB in hardness. Proof results here. Scroll down to barrel wear section.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/#bookmark4
Click to expand...

Thank you for this too. Bottom line is that bi-metal wear is significant after 10,000 rounds.
 
I've read that Lucky Gunner review of brass vs steel ammo. Not sure if folks read the article word for word of just looked at the pics but Andrew makes the claim that:

"The steel cases themselves don’t have any effect on the condition of the bore. The difference lies with the projectile – the soft copper jacket of the Federal ammunition simply doesn’t cause the same amount of wear as the bimetal (copper and steel) jacket of the Russian ammunition."

I don't have any 30cal Norc ammo to check but the 223 versions are FMJ and not bi-metal.
 
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