.308 Norinco Surp + my AR = :(

[beltfed]

I've read that Lucky Gunner review of brass vs steel ammo. Not sure if folks read the article word for word of just looked at the pics but Andrew makes the claim that:

"The steel cases themselves don’t have any effect on the condition of the bore. The difference lies with the projectile – the soft copper jacket of the Federal ammunition simply doesn’t cause the same amount of wear as the bimetal (copper and steel) jacket of the Russian ammunition."

I don't have any 30cal Norc ammo to check but the 223 versions are FMJ and not bi-metal.

I'm not sure that claim is accurate. There have been tests completed on brass cased ammunition and the amount of heat brass pulls away from the chamber and barrel is significant. I believe H&K did significant testing during their development of the G11.
Powder chemistry also plays a large factor in how much heat is generated.

 

[pauls]

Took a quick read of the lucky gunner article and it basically states that barrels are consumable items.

At the end of the article, it shows price comparisons (with their estimates of ammo and barrels costs)
You can shoot the cheaper ammo and replace your barrel for the same cost as shooting brass cased, non bi metal ammo.

As long as the ammo is reliable ( lets bring this back to the OP's reason for starting the thread), just shoot and have fun.
When you don't like the accuracy any more, replace the barrel.
AR's are like lego.
Part swapping is fast and easy.

 

[caramel]

Took a quick read of the lucky gunner article and it basically states that barrels are consumable items.

At the end of the article, it shows price comparisons (with their estimates of ammo and barrels costs)
You can shoot the cheaper ammo and replace your barrel for the same cost as shooting brass cased, non bi metal ammo.

As long as the ammo is reliable ( lets bring this back to the OP's reason for starting the thread), just shoot and have fun.
When you don't like the accuracy any more, replace the barrel.
AR's are like lego.
Part swapping is fast and easy.

That's my understanding of an AR... JP.

 

[cr5]

Took a quick read of the lucky gunner article and it basically states that barrels are consumable items.

At the end of the article, it shows price comparisons (with their estimates of ammo and barrels costs)
You can shoot the cheaper ammo and replace your barrel for the same cost as shooting brass cased, non bi metal ammo.

As long as the ammo is reliable ( lets bring this back to the OP's reason for starting the thread), just shoot and have fun.
When you don't like the accuracy any more, replace the barrel.
AR's are like lego.
Part swapping is fast and easy.

I agree with you 100% when you are talking about a standard DI AR.
The rifles I would never let this ammo near are rifles like the Swiss Arms, an HK, a Tavor, My piston driven PWS AR's that don't use a standard AR barrel, My NR ACR, or any other rifle that doesn't take a $200 AR barrel that can be replaced in your basement. I myself don't run $200 barrels in my rifles, when I buy a barrel I usually spend $500 on a custom cut stainless or chromolly barrel so running ammo that will shorten the lifespan of my barrels doesn't make sense to me.

If as you state the cost ends up being the same in the long run having to replace your barrel more often while shooting the cheap ammo then why not shoot better ammo and get better performance/accuracy and replace your barrel less often?

 

[cr5]

I've read that Lucky Gunner review of brass vs steel ammo. Not sure if folks read the article word for word of just looked at the pics but Andrew makes the claim that:

"The steel cases themselves don’t have any effect on the condition of the bore. The difference lies with the projectile – the soft copper jacket of the Federal ammunition simply doesn’t cause the same amount of wear as the bimetal (copper and steel) jacket of the Russian ammunition."

I don't have any 30cal Norc ammo to check but the 223 versions are FMJ and not bi-metal.

The problem is that some of the lots of 5.56 Norc supposedly were bi-metal and it sounds like all the 7.62 is copper wash steel jacket. You just never know what you're going to get when you open a case of Norc. I've read some posts where guys open up a case marked 5.56 and got 7.62 armor piercing. If I could get lucky like that I might buy some Norc.

 

[SteelCap]

The problem is that some of the lots of 5.56 Norc supposedly were bi-metal and it sounds like all the 7.62 is copper wash steel jacket. You just never know what you're going to get when you open a case of Norc. I've read some posts where guys open up a case marked 5.56 and got 7.62 armor piercing. If I could get lucky like that I might buy some Norc.

Just did the magnet test and none of the 5.56 are bimetal but not for the 7.62.

 

[SteelCap]

Yes, but bullet wear starts with the first round, that was the point they were making....

So in the case of the Swiss K31, the barrel is made of tool steel or harder than the bimetail Swiss GP11 then? The Swiss GP11 are bimetal (I just did the magnet test) and have been in use for decades on the Swiss K31 and yet the barrel condition on most of these are excellent.

 

[cr5]

Just did the magnet test and none of the 5.56 are bimetal but not for the 7.62.

Like I said, some of the earlier 5.56 lots that showed up were bi-metal according to reports on this site.

So in the case of the Swiss K31, the barrel is made of tool steel or harder than the bimetail Swiss GP11 then? The Swiss GP11 are bimetal (I just did the magnet test) and have been in use for decades on the Swiss K31 and yet the barrel condition on most of these are excellent.

I don't think any barrel is made from tool steel, that is extremely hard and would be very hard to machine making manufacturing costs much higher than using other materials.

Don't forget that a military rifle used in military service also comes with a unit armorer who will change out the barrel whenever needed on the taxpayers dime so they don't really care if the ammo causes some extra wear. When you have to pay for it out of your pocket and then also pay a smith to swap it for you it changes the situation. The AR and a select few others are the only ones that the end user can swap out the barrel. Very few rifles other than the AR use a barrel that can be purchased ready to install for $200. And not everyone can do it themselves, it requires extra tools that many aren't willing to pay for and then you also get the people that don't know what they are doing and end up ruining their upper receiver trying to swap it themselves.

 

[CanAm]

I ran mostly Barnaul in my tavor. lasted over 20k rds

 

[beltfed]

So in the case of the Swiss K31, the barrel is made of tool steel or harder than the bimetail Swiss GP11 then? The Swiss GP11 are bimetal (I just did the magnet test) and have been in use for decades on the Swiss K31 and yet the barrel condition on most of these are excellent.

The majority of the Swiss guns have not seen hard use, you are not going to see 30 round mag dumps creating high amounts of prolonged heat, and the gun as a whole can be replaced for the cost of an average AR barrel...so shoot away.

 

[shooterman]

Like I said, some of the earlier 5.56 lots that showed up were bi-metal according to reports on this site.




I don't think any barrel is made from tool steel, that is extremely hard and would be very hard to machine making manufacturing costs much higher than using other materials.

Don't forget that a military rifle used in military service also comes with a unit armorer who will change out the barrel whenever needed on the taxpayers dime so they don't really care if the ammo causes some extra wear. When you have to pay for it out of your pocket and then also pay a smith to swap it for you it changes the situation. The AR and a select few others are the only ones that the end user can swap out the barrel. Very few rifles other than the AR use a barrel that can be purchased ready to install for $200. And not everyone can do it themselves, it requires extra tools that many aren't willing to pay for and then you also get the people that don't know what they are doing and end up ruining their upper receiver trying to swap it themselves.

No barrels are made of tool steel. To difficult to machine, can't thread and no broach will cut.

 

[shooterman]

Like I said, some of the earlier 5.56 lots that showed up were bi-metal according to reports on this site.




I don't think any barrel is made from tool steel, that is extremely hard and would be very hard to machine making manufacturing costs much higher than using other materials.

Don't forget that a military rifle used in military service also comes with a unit armorer who will change out the barrel whenever needed on the taxpayers dime so they don't really care if the ammo causes some extra wear. When you have to pay for it out of your pocket and then also pay a smith to swap it for you it changes the situation. The AR and a select few others are the only ones that the end user can swap out the barrel. Very few rifles other than the AR use a barrel that can be purchased ready to install for $200. And not everyone can do it themselves, it requires extra tools that many aren't willing to pay for and then you also get the people that don't know what they are doing and end up ruining their upper receiver trying to swap it themselves.

No barrels are made of tool steel. To difficult to machine, can't thread and no broach will cut. Jeez!

 

[andrew3081]

I agree with you 100% when you are talking about a standard DI AR.
The rifles I would never let this ammo near are rifles like the Swiss Arms, an HK, a Tavor, My piston driven PWS AR's that don't use a standard AR barrel, My NR ACR, or any other rifle that doesn't take a $200 AR barrel that can be replaced in your basement. I myself don't run $200 barrels in my rifles, when I buy a barrel I usually spend $500 on a custom cut stainless or chromolly barrel so running ammo that will shorten the lifespan of my barrels doesn't make sense to me.

If as you state the cost ends up being the same in the long run having to replace your barrel more often while shooting the cheap ammo then why not shoot better ammo and get better performance/accuracy and replace your barrel less often?

The price difference between the 2 different type of ammo is $1500 at 10000 rounds.
$3000 at 20000 rounds of .223 rem.

Most barrels don't cost $3000.

 

[Matt_dal123]

Yea JP your rounds look fresh... but they are ten years newer as well.

Would a vendor even be interested in taking this stuff back?

Ha!

 

[cr5]

No barrels are made of tool steel. To difficult to machine, can't thread and no broach will cut. Jeez!

Are you agreeing with me? I was telling whoever I quoted that barrels aren't made from tool steel.
Jeez?