I did the same. And ditto. - dan
308 vs6.5 creedmore
- Thread starter cockawee1
- Start date
I did the same. And ditto. - dan
Lol, I love it when the pot calls for the kettle...
Recap;
I correct some facts about 270/6.5 CM compare (not prc) and that PRC compares better to 270 wsm, to someone else btw.
Then you come in all hot and bothered with bunch of gack spew about ethical shooting at extended long range, fence hunting and tv shows, and the best part was how a 140 gr bullet is now barely adequate at those distances for deer size game only. Squirrel! Tourettes perhaps? I had to assume a DRI (drinking related incident). Lmfao, then you say that's a difficult argument to win....haha no sh1t...twilight zone music going off at this point.
Just to answer I think one part of that properly...a heavier bullet in the butt at the same speed isn't as good as a lighter one in the heart. I read that somewhere recently.
Lol, I love it when the pot calls for the kettle...
Recap;
I correct some facts about 270/6.5 CM compare (not prc) and that PRC compares better to 270 wsm, to someone else btw.
Then you come in all hot and bothered with bunch of gack spew about ethical shooting at extended long range, fence hunting and tv shows, and the best part was how a 140 gr bullet is now barely adequate at those distances for deer size game only. Squirrel! Tourettes perhaps? I had to assume a DRI (drinking related incident). Lmfao, then you say that's a difficult argument to win....haha no sh1t...twilight zone music going off at this point.
Just to answer I think one part of that properly...a heavier bullet in the butt at the same speed isn't as good as a lighter one in the heart. I read that somewhere recently.
Dude... What is going on inside your head? Didn't mention ethics...didn't say it was barely adequate for deer size game...the only assumption is that you still can't read.
Again, with less words, so you can read it slowly... you're not going to convince many, if any, that have done it, to take a ELR shot at a critter larger than a deer with a 140 grain bullet. Just too many variables. A heavier bullet at the same speed helps reduce all of them. That's a difficult argument to "win", no matter what.
And you suggested to leave shooters out of it... so if anyone is thinking on hitting anything in the butt, with any sized bullet, they probably shouldn't be shooting?
Can't make it much more simpler than that.
R.
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Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Blakey has written some great posts on ballistics, and some really misguided ones. I’m sure in our own subjects we’re all the same that way, he just has more ‘energy’ and enthusiasm than most of us to trumpet his points.
In the end, Blakey’s single main flaw and the reason I find his argument unsupportable is deciding energy is of low importance. Particularly odd when we’re discussing a kinetic energy weapon, a bullet, that only does its work through kinetic energy lest it sit harmlessly on the coffee table.
The more weight, the more speed, the more damage. Physics is really the only thing none of us can debate here as those rules are etched into the fabric of the universe. And yet… we do debate them. I get where Blakey comes from, the angle is, enough is enough and excess is useless waste, when dead is dead. Where we differ is I don’t see the 140gr 6.5 as perfect in every scenario, on every animal up to elephants.
In the end, Blakey’s single main flaw and the reason I find his argument unsupportable is deciding energy is of low importance. Particularly odd when we’re discussing a kinetic energy weapon, a bullet, that only does its work through kinetic energy lest it sit harmlessly on the coffee table.
The more weight, the more speed, the more damage. Physics is really the only thing none of us can debate here as those rules are etched into the fabric of the universe. And yet… we do debate them. I get where Blakey comes from, the angle is, enough is enough and excess is useless waste, when dead is dead. Where we differ is I don’t see the 140gr 6.5 as perfect in every scenario, on every animal up to elephants.
You can stop gaslighting your wrongful interpretation of what you somehow read into my simple fact based point out to the other guy, and stop misdirecting with baffle em with bullshat, you're the one who didn't read my post very well yet you quoted it and went off in your own direction. That's on you bro, carry on then, it's entertaining at least.
Fyi, objective based info is what I do, not trying to convince anyone anything, just keep things straight, dispel misinformation etc. And reminder, this was a cartridge thread, not an ethics thread lol, still shaking my head on where you ended up in your mind with that one.
Why thank you Sir, enjoy posts as well. We will always disagree on the energy importance. Outside this bubble all the info is available.
And oh gosh, 140 in 6.5 isn't enough for elephants lol, please don't insinuate I said that or try to convince anyone of that....need at least 156's or 160's fmj's landing around 2300 fps haha, not my experiences but some famous guy who killed or poached more than anyone else likely...or as always explaining, .32 to .328 SD at 2300 fps impact as a known threshold that works. Dump as little or much energy with that formula as you like...but it's the last number one needs to look at. For our game when you get too high on a couple of those numbers all the energy is left in the hillside. Shot a moose and whitetail same day, same distance, the both went 15 yards, same rifle/cartridge/bullet, the damage in the moose quartering towards was amazing, all my energy dumped in the 20" or whatever of penetration, easy football cone of hamburger, the whitetail broadside in the lungs was maybe a baseball peak cone of damage in middle...rest went somewhere else. When you opened up the moose you would have easily accepted a 300 win mag did that, and open up the deer you would think maybe a 22 magnum lol. And I didn't have very much energy at all. The bullet being able to really open up and work over those 20" is what did all the work...energy smenergy. You need to get 3 other things correct first....energy you can look at as a distant 4th....and I mean waaaaay distant. If you know how to use it, you can really get efficient with it.
And if people can't take how I deliver info and roast you must be lame as heck to hunt with, lighten up, have to have even thicker skin online than you do in person, humility and harsh truth is just fun. I'd hunt with Ardent...but RMan sounds a little too serious to me.
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pete dobinson
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Courtenay BC.
Out to 400 yards a properly loaded 270 will have an edge on the 6.5 CM. A good quality 130gr bullet at 3150 fps or a 140gr at 3000+ and a 150 gr bullet at 2900+ fps is easy to achieve with RL26. The BC of .277 bullets aren't really a slouch either, they have enough for any range I need to hunt.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The crux of your argument Blakey seems to be SDs in the range of .300 are critical or at least highly important, and velocities not in excess, and not lacking either. Many have tried to say that’s the shining path, however good bullets changed all that on SD, seen far too many dead animals here and Africa to attest to that to the point, enough I threw my own strong attachment to SD out the proverbial window many years ago. The good bullets also allowed us to reliably shoot game in the 3000fps window too, with significantly improved effects over slower, older bullets.
The next link in your argument is that apparently nobody can handle recoil above 6.5 well, and all will suffer to some degree. Some of the best shots I’ve ever hunted with favoured magnum 7mms, .300s in particular, .375s and even fast .458s abroad. The recoil threshold is individual, not blanket. I do agree in general, people shoot better with lighter recoil, but those who shoot avidly typically have no trouble until at least .375 Mag, especially on a one of two shot hunt. It’s oft cited as the recoil ceiling for casual, but practiced shooters, it’s not 6.5.
As for 6.5 being a ballistic revolution, not anymore that’s spread to all the calibers, see the Hornay 178 .308 load, it actually arrives flatter at 1000 than the 6.5Cr 147ELD-M by a smidge. It’s pick em, long as you choose equivalently developed loads by a company like Hornady. Yes, there will be a tiny smidge more recoil in the .308, but few would notice that difference in the field, and it’s made up for by greater energy in the .308.
The next link in your argument is that apparently nobody can handle recoil above 6.5 well, and all will suffer to some degree. Some of the best shots I’ve ever hunted with favoured magnum 7mms, .300s in particular, .375s and even fast .458s abroad. The recoil threshold is individual, not blanket. I do agree in general, people shoot better with lighter recoil, but those who shoot avidly typically have no trouble until at least .375 Mag, especially on a one of two shot hunt. It’s oft cited as the recoil ceiling for casual, but practiced shooters, it’s not 6.5.
As for 6.5 being a ballistic revolution, not anymore that’s spread to all the calibers, see the Hornay 178 .308 load, it actually arrives flatter at 1000 than the 6.5Cr 147ELD-M by a smidge. It’s pick em, long as you choose equivalently developed loads by a company like Hornady. Yes, there will be a tiny smidge more recoil in the .308, but few would notice that difference in the field, and it’s made up for by greater energy in the .308.
I know a few real ELR shooters that not only shoot expanded ranges at targets but as hunters as well, and not one of them would even consider using a 6.5 anything past 500 meters, and they don't consider ELR anything inside 900.
First off is accuracy,yes and light calibers and cartridges just don't cut it when building long range hunting rigs .
The difference at 1K between a 140 6.5 WSM wildcat and a 250 338 Lapua coming out about the same MV on steel is the 6.5 marks the steel and the 338 puts a big dent in it .
Cat
Edit note: at one time I shot a wldcatted 6.5 and used to make one shot kills regularly at "further than normal " distances, but don't anymore, I save the long range stuff for targets
Cat
First off is accuracy,yes and light calibers and cartridges just don't cut it when building long range hunting rigs .
The difference at 1K between a 140 6.5 WSM wildcat and a 250 338 Lapua coming out about the same MV on steel is the 6.5 marks the steel and the 338 puts a big dent in it .
Cat
Edit note: at one time I shot a wldcatted 6.5 and used to make one shot kills regularly at "further than normal " distances, but don't anymore, I save the long range stuff for targets
Cat
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Okay, so if this was the scenerio:
Spring black bear
no more than 300 yard shot, likely under 200 yards
trying to bust the shoulder and put it down on the spot, or at least get enough time to hit it again. (the further it runs into the cedars, the higher likelyhood it might not be found)
choice of 2 rifles, each one shoots the same accuracy, and recoil does not matter:
1. 18" barrel 308 shooting factory hornady custom 165 interlocks
2. 22" barrel 6.5 creedmoor shooting factory hornady outfitter 120 cx
Presuming the cx retains 95% weight (=114 grains) and the interlock retains 70% weight (=115 grains), which one do choose?
Spring black bear
no more than 300 yard shot, likely under 200 yards
trying to bust the shoulder and put it down on the spot, or at least get enough time to hit it again. (the further it runs into the cedars, the higher likelyhood it might not be found)
choice of 2 rifles, each one shoots the same accuracy, and recoil does not matter:
1. 18" barrel 308 shooting factory hornady custom 165 interlocks
2. 22" barrel 6.5 creedmoor shooting factory hornady outfitter 120 cx
Presuming the cx retains 95% weight (=114 grains) and the interlock retains 70% weight (=115 grains), which one do choose?
Who is everyone and what do they think it is?
elKrusto,
Use whichever one makes you happy and don't worry about what anyone else thinks. The bear will never know the difference and that comes from shooting animals with both lol
One might as well be the other. Their powder capacity is close, their velocity with comparable bullet weight is close, the difference in diameter doesn't matter until you actually measure two expanded bullets and I bet that's very close, and the wounds they inflict look the same. The 308 is going to kick a bit harder in doing so.
*shrug*
elKrusto,
Use whichever one makes you happy and don't worry about what anyone else thinks. The bear will never know the difference and that comes from shooting animals with both lol
One might as well be the other. Their powder capacity is close, their velocity with comparable bullet weight is close, the difference in diameter doesn't matter until you actually measure two expanded bullets and I bet that's very close, and the wounds they inflict look the same. The 308 is going to kick a bit harder in doing so.
*shrug*
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Very little difference at all. Choose the one that feels better to you. - dan
Use a BETTER bullet such as a 150 or 165 TTSX in the 308 and you will BUST the shoulder and anchor him ! RJ
Or to really compare 308 to 6.5 CM in recoil too, the 130 TTSX
Yup ! And Any TTSX bullet is far superior fir penetration than a horn interlock! RJ
pete dobinson
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Courtenay BC.
In my hornady fourth edition ballistic manual a 308 with 180 grain bullet at 2600 fps will have the same energy at 300 yds as a 6.5 140 grain bullet at 2700 fps at 200 yds. These are max loads for both cartridges. The max charge in 6.5 was from a 6.5x57 in my manual.
The 178gr ELD-X probably increases that difference even further, if one measures effectivenss by energy.
I'd be pretty confident in a 127gr LRX with 1546 ft/lbs remaining at 300 yards because I know they open well at that speed and would bet the time/distance before death of 10 bears shot with each have nearly identical means.
But, we judge as we will!
(ETA: My latest version of the Hornady manual shows a 143 gr ELD-X at 2850 fps. Bet that does quite a bit better too with its .620+ BC)
I'd be pretty confident in a 127gr LRX with 1546 ft/lbs remaining at 300 yards because I know they open well at that speed and would bet the time/distance before death of 10 bears shot with each have nearly identical means.
But, we judge as we will!
(ETA: My latest version of the Hornady manual shows a 143 gr ELD-X at 2850 fps. Bet that does quite a bit better too with its .620+ BC)
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