.416 owners, the ultimate big game hunting cartridge?
- Thread starter Northern Shooter
- Start date
I'm launching a petition to BAN the MUZZLE BRAKE!!
For the record I shoot .338WM, 9.3x62, .375H&H, .416RM and .458Lott. No muzzle brakes will EVER be on one of my rifles.
I simply learned how to handle recoil and it doesn't bother me.
The most evil recoil I've ever experienced btw is a M-1895 Marlin Guide Gun, .45-70 shooting hot 405gr loads, like 2000fps.
Those literally rattle the teeth, when shooting off the bench.
For the record I shoot .338WM, 9.3x62, .375H&H, .416RM and .458Lott. No muzzle brakes will EVER be on one of my rifles.
I simply learned how to handle recoil and it doesn't bother me.
The most evil recoil I've ever experienced btw is a M-1895 Marlin Guide Gun, .45-70 shooting hot 405gr loads, like 2000fps.
Those literally rattle the teeth, when shooting off the bench.
Yes, I don't notice it much when I was hunting with it, but load development required some thought. A few pads. Lead sled, etc. - dan
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Not that I have a ton of experience in Africa, but on my two trips I saw a few rifles in use. The first trip two of us took 416 Rigbys and one used a 375 H&H. We killed pretty much the same bag of game with no noticeable difference. On the second trip I had to rent a rifle due to the arms embargo. I used a 375 Ruger and it performed exactly as Gatehouse would tell you that it would. That being said, I would have used my PH's 416 Remington (I know, eww...) but when I was sighting it on we discovered a broken crosshair in the scope. I prefer more rather than less, but I intuitively knew that the 375 would work just fine. I should have talked to the richer (than me) clients in Zimbabwe to see what they were all using. That would have been interesting.
I agree. Learned that with a wood stocked 450 Ackley. But set up right, they are certainly easier than beating yourself to death. - dan
Not considering .416 Wby? Can be loaded up to ~300 fps faster than other .416's. Swift #2 for example lists .416 Wby 350gr @ ~2900 fps max mv vs .416 Rigby 350gr @ ~2600 fps max mv.
A few .416 Wby Canadian Northern Magnum Limited Edition rifles from their custom shop currently available from a couple retailers. https://i.imgur.com/juQiN5j.jpg
A few .416 Wby Canadian Northern Magnum Limited Edition rifles from their custom shop currently available from a couple retailers. https://i.imgur.com/juQiN5j.jpg
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Less case capacity. Pressures must have been pretty high. - dan
You can handload the 416 Rigby to the same ballistics as the 416 Wby, their case capacities are very close. - dan
No issues with .416 Rigby larger case head dia. increasing bolt thrust excessively in some rifles at higher than 52,000 psi max rated pressure to get .416 Wby muzzle speeds?
.416 Wby max rated pressure 65,000 psi 25% higher than .416 Rigby max rated pressure.
.416 Wby max rated pressure 65,000 psi 25% higher than .416 Rigby max rated pressure.
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The useable case capacity is lower on the Lapua Improved case, but not by much. Slightly less than 5 grains. The bullet takes up a lot of room in the Bee case.
It also helps that the Lapua brass hides pressure really really well, and is a bit more efficient.
R.
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Dan, you can't say in one post that the 338 Lapua case capacity is lower than the 416 Rigby, and then in another say they are very close?
The Rigby case in a very round about way is the parent case for the 338 Lapua. The case capacities of the 416 Rigby are 127.5, the 416 Bee are 140, and for reference, the 416-338 Lapua Improved are 128.0R.
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Probably not advisable with an older rifle...any newer manufactured rifle with a chambering rated for 65,000 psi wouldn't be an issue. The only other possible snag would be the Rigby brass?
R.
Case head area ratio: .416 Rigby vs .416 RM for example, (0.59"/0.532")^2 = 1.23
Bolt thrust = Pressure x Area
At whatever chamber pressure .416 Rigby bolt thrust will be about 23% higher vs .416 RM bolt thrust at that same pressure
.416 Rigby max pressure rated lower by 25% because if its wider case head dia. to offset higher bolt thrust to limit bolt lug shear force?
Bolt thrust = Pressure x Area
At whatever chamber pressure .416 Rigby bolt thrust will be about 23% higher vs .416 RM bolt thrust at that same pressure
.416 Rigby max pressure rated lower by 25% because if its wider case head dia. to offset higher bolt thrust to limit bolt lug shear force?
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I learned a good while ago that above .375 was all for my impression of the power of the rifle rather than the actual impression on the game taken. Stood true here and in Africa on things that are supposed to be hard to kill.
This said would be a boring world if we all limited ourselves to .375 H&H and .308. But I can’t see a fault in that lineup for anything you’d want to hunt in the world.
Selby literally shot out the barrel on his .416 Rigby and sent it back for a rebarrel. Was built on a standard Mauser 98 by Rigby, with the feed ramp cut right up to the lower locking lug as they did. I doubt a .416 Rigby would present any challenge to any modern standard action.
This said would be a boring world if we all limited ourselves to .375 H&H and .308. But I can’t see a fault in that lineup for anything you’d want to hunt in the world.
Selby literally shot out the barrel on his .416 Rigby and sent it back for a rebarrel. Was built on a standard Mauser 98 by Rigby, with the feed ramp cut right up to the lower locking lug as they did. I doubt a .416 Rigby would present any challenge to any modern standard action.
To 4fifty8: Not sure what you're trying to say? Model 700's, for example, were chambered in 338 Lapua (same case diameter as 416 Rigby) and 416 Rem Mag... so bolt thrust must not have been an issue?
Thinking that 416 Rigby max pressure is rated lower because it is chambered in some older rifles, not because of bolt thrust. Think 45-70 in older levers, as compared to a Ruger No. 1
R.
Thinking that 416 Rigby max pressure is rated lower because it is chambered in some older rifles, not because of bolt thrust. Think 45-70 in older levers, as compared to a Ruger No. 1
R.
I have been a fan of the .375H&H since my teens, thanks to its almost legendary reputation among gun writers and hunting writers. Used it in various rifles over the years for just about everything I hunted...deer, black bear, moose...and also groundhogs, coyotes, crows, you name it. Out to 300 yards it was perfect. I just knew I would go to Africa someday, and a .375 would be the gun I would take...and, of course, it would be in H&H variety.
But I eventually started to think more and more about a .416Rigby, and eventually got hold of a RSM chambered thusly. I used it for a few years, shot a couple animals and several varmints and predators with it. It became the apple of my eye, and morphed my African plans to include 2 rifles. I never shot an animal at much over 150 yards with it, but did a fair bit of work on targets up to 300 and felt quite confident about using it. Unfortunately, the dang thing split its stock at the wrist only a few weeks before I was scheduled to leave for Africa (yes, I finally went, and only about 40 years after first vowing to do so...) so I ended up taking only my .375 and never felt I was limited in any way. The H&H (in a Blaser R93) took Springbok at just under 300 yards and Cape buffalo at just under 20, with equal aplomb.
I recall reading an article by Ross Seyfried (only one author among many who wrote comparisons between the two) in which he strongly recommended the typical African hunter to go with a .375 if he only expected to shoot a single elephant or buffalo, and to leave the .416 to professionals and others waging extended battles with the big guys.
In terms of shootability and recoil, I didn't find much difference between the two; but almost all my .375's had been relatively lightweight compared to the massively overweight .416 in the RSM. All that weight must have mitigated recoil a great deal. I had owned only one .375 that probably approached the weight of the RSM (an older CZ) but didn't have them simultaneously so couldn't really compare them side by side.
Both cartridges were relatively easy shooters, much more comfortable in the recoil department and of course much more flat-shooting than the single .458WinMag I owned for a time. Both of the smaller cartridges could be considered very versatile and multi-purpose, while IMHO the .458 was too specialized and short-range for me to consider it an all-arounder.
I sold the .416Rigby immediately after replacing the stock, and never felt the urge to replace it. Now that I am gradually reducing my gun hoard, I am down to a single .375H&H and, with no more African hunts in my future, am unlikely to get another...despite the fact that I could easily get another Blaser barrel in .416Rem and be shooting for relatively little money. Unless you are still at the point where there are never enough guns in the house, I can't see the point of both a .375 and a .416 in the same safe; they're just too similar in capability. If you want something bigger and badder than a .375, the next logical stop is .458-caliber...and even then, its only real benefit is if you are chasing the biggest of big game. If you just like big bullets making big holes, the .45-70 is, in my mind, an infinitely more entertaining and easy-going cartridge.
I don't have any experience at all with the bigger .375's and .416's and other "supermagnums". I'll never need them and have no interest. I've never quite understood the fascination for more-more-MORE that leads every cartridge to be hotrodded to within an inch of its life, or beyond.
There are two other cartridges I've played with a bit which might be of interest in the context of this thread. The first is the .425 Express, essentially a .300WinMag necked up to take .423 bullets at about 2300-2400fps. The second is the .450-400, shooting the same bullet weight at, I believe, about 2000fps. Both were fun to shoot...the .450-400 is a total pussycat...and both are apparently very effective on game, as the numbers would seem to indicate. I just didn't keep them long enough to really get to know them; kinda regret that now.
As it stands, my gun collection is getting more streamlined with each passing year; I can easily see a day when a couple of Blaser stock/receiver units and a bunch of barrels will keep me happy. On that day, only one of the cartridges being discussed here will be represented: the .375H&H. There are no other close contenders.
But I eventually started to think more and more about a .416Rigby, and eventually got hold of a RSM chambered thusly. I used it for a few years, shot a couple animals and several varmints and predators with it. It became the apple of my eye, and morphed my African plans to include 2 rifles. I never shot an animal at much over 150 yards with it, but did a fair bit of work on targets up to 300 and felt quite confident about using it. Unfortunately, the dang thing split its stock at the wrist only a few weeks before I was scheduled to leave for Africa (yes, I finally went, and only about 40 years after first vowing to do so...) so I ended up taking only my .375 and never felt I was limited in any way. The H&H (in a Blaser R93) took Springbok at just under 300 yards and Cape buffalo at just under 20, with equal aplomb.
I recall reading an article by Ross Seyfried (only one author among many who wrote comparisons between the two) in which he strongly recommended the typical African hunter to go with a .375 if he only expected to shoot a single elephant or buffalo, and to leave the .416 to professionals and others waging extended battles with the big guys.
In terms of shootability and recoil, I didn't find much difference between the two; but almost all my .375's had been relatively lightweight compared to the massively overweight .416 in the RSM. All that weight must have mitigated recoil a great deal. I had owned only one .375 that probably approached the weight of the RSM (an older CZ) but didn't have them simultaneously so couldn't really compare them side by side.
Both cartridges were relatively easy shooters, much more comfortable in the recoil department and of course much more flat-shooting than the single .458WinMag I owned for a time. Both of the smaller cartridges could be considered very versatile and multi-purpose, while IMHO the .458 was too specialized and short-range for me to consider it an all-arounder.
I sold the .416Rigby immediately after replacing the stock, and never felt the urge to replace it. Now that I am gradually reducing my gun hoard, I am down to a single .375H&H and, with no more African hunts in my future, am unlikely to get another...despite the fact that I could easily get another Blaser barrel in .416Rem and be shooting for relatively little money. Unless you are still at the point where there are never enough guns in the house, I can't see the point of both a .375 and a .416 in the same safe; they're just too similar in capability. If you want something bigger and badder than a .375, the next logical stop is .458-caliber...and even then, its only real benefit is if you are chasing the biggest of big game. If you just like big bullets making big holes, the .45-70 is, in my mind, an infinitely more entertaining and easy-going cartridge.
I don't have any experience at all with the bigger .375's and .416's and other "supermagnums". I'll never need them and have no interest. I've never quite understood the fascination for more-more-MORE that leads every cartridge to be hotrodded to within an inch of its life, or beyond.
There are two other cartridges I've played with a bit which might be of interest in the context of this thread. The first is the .425 Express, essentially a .300WinMag necked up to take .423 bullets at about 2300-2400fps. The second is the .450-400, shooting the same bullet weight at, I believe, about 2000fps. Both were fun to shoot...the .450-400 is a total pussycat...and both are apparently very effective on game, as the numbers would seem to indicate. I just didn't keep them long enough to really get to know them; kinda regret that now.
As it stands, my gun collection is getting more streamlined with each passing year; I can easily see a day when a couple of Blaser stock/receiver units and a bunch of barrels will keep me happy. On that day, only one of the cartridges being discussed here will be represented: the .375H&H. There are no other close contenders.
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