45-70 vs. 375H&H for up close
- Thread starter hansol
- Start date
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Then a 480 gr WFN 500 fps faster must hit like a longer faster train.
Probably fewer than got zapped with a 7X57!
true enough,but it is still insane!
Northman999
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Yukon
If you don't reload the 375 H&H no questions.
I can see you 45-70 guys are really liking your rifles, but I took my brothers 1985GS guide gun out last summer with some Winchester factory 300gr ammo and I was not impressed. 1800 fps on the chrony. Only slightly faster than my muzzle loader, with a bullet half the size! And a solid 700 fps slower than the .375H&H with the same bullet weights. Is there really that much diffrence between handloads and factory 45-70? I had pretty much written off that caliber after my experience with it on the range with factory ammo.
I can see you 45-70 guys are really liking your rifles, but I took my brothers 1985GS guide gun out last summer with some Winchester factory 300gr ammo and I was not impressed. 1800 fps on the chrony. Only slightly faster than my muzzle loader, with a bullet half the size! And a solid 700 fps slower than the .375H&H with the same bullet weights. Is there really that much diffrence between handloads and factory 45-70? I had pretty much written off that caliber after my experience with it on the range with factory ammo.
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I can load 400gr jacketed or cast to 2000fps in my 18 1/2" barreled 1895GS 45-70 and the reason I stop at 1600fps with 525gr - 550gr WLNGC's is because that is the velocity that Garret loads his too it is not that I can't push them faster.
Yeah I'd say there is a difference between factory and reloads...
Yeah I'd say there is a difference between factory and reloads...
Hey now, that's just rude...
Yes, Iam sorry I don't know what I was thinkin' insulting the NEW KING, I must now go out and buy one. But do I go with the Stainless Alakan or the new # 1 Stainless laminate ????? I will most likley shoot it with iron sights possibly a peep from New England Custom Gun I have a set with the fiber optic bead up front on my 308 international and they are fantastic. http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/index.html?welcometonecg.html~maindeal
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firea...ariation=Stainless Sporter&bct=Yes&type=Rifle Very difficult decision
Didn't suggest that a cut down 500 gr TSX (certainly not in half - enough trimmed to allow for a) powder room, b) to fit the action, and c) because it answered the question - I don't own a .375 H&H.) is "better" than a heavy hard cast. I just don't use cast bullets. Don't shoot the big bore lever enough to warrant it as there are plenty of great tough .458 bullets around. Bullets required .200" to be cut back. The resulting nose diameter is certainly no more than a 350 FN and as far as affecting expansion goes, who cares? They'll still probably expand marginally but at the reduced speed, and these bullets are really designed for much higher velocities, even if they don't expand then they're behaving more like a solid. A .458 diameter hole is still a big hole. Knocking 40-45 grains off a 500 certainly isn't cutting it in half. The first few I did with a hacksaw then filed true on loaded ammo in a padded vise and they shot 1 1/2" @ 100. It then occurred to me (duh...) my manual RCBS trimmer is basically a mini lathe, use it. It worked fine. These were too-long cartridges, very heavily crimped and once in the chamber there was only one way out - shoot them. This solved the problem - they can be cycled now and of all the guns I own this is the one I'd prefer up close in the up-close situation. Simply using what I had and it was a pile of fun to mess with - hell, it's a levergun. I'd equate the huge bullet at an estimated 1500 fps like having both your Porsche and your tank truck start rolling in neutral at the same time and crashing into your garage door - which one will do the most damage and "penetrate" the garage more? I wouldn't go out and buy these monster bullets to simply whack them down, but already had some and now they have a very specific purpose - trouble at in-my-personal-space ranges. I've seen what they do and number crunching means nada to me. I have complete faith in them and all I've done is expand the versatility of my favorite gun.
Finger Toes
Regular
- Location
- Yellowhead County
This sounds very interesting indeed! Barnes is only making a 300 gr FN TSX and they don't plan on making a heavier TSX FN for lever gunners. What method are you using to trim the nose flat? Accuracy isn't a huge factor at 50 at so yards as long as the bullet is stabilized properly. I've read that many PH's prefer hunters to use a soft nose or TSX for the first shot on dangerous game because of the solids characteristic of not destroying soft tissue. A solid defiantly goes through everything but some shots don't always offer two shoulders to hit. Like Gatehouse said though a head shot cancels.
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Edward Teach
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- who cares?
I can load 400gr jacketed or cast to 2000fps in my 18 1/2" barreled 1895GS 45-70 and the reason I stop at 1600fps with 525gr - 550gr WLNGC's is because that is the velocity that Garret loads his too it is not that I can't push them faster.
Yeah I'd say there is a difference between factory and reloads...
Where are you gettin them big boolits from? I wouldn't mind picking up a few to try...
I think the choice hinges on whether or not you handload. If you handload 45/70 you can get considerably more stopping power than what those anemic 45/70 factory loads provide. Also a lever action allows you to chamber and fire successive rounds quickly if need be.
Settled on first loading and crimping the 500 gr. at around 2.715" - don't ask me why that length, that's simply where a buddy of mine seated them with 40 grs of IMR3031, 41 was sticky occasionally on extraction. It's a full load. I scribed a line at about 2.57", started a trim cut with a Dremel cutoff tool, just enough to start a hobby knife set mini hacksaw on the bullet. Any more than a start line with the Dremel will generate too much heat. Then I stuck the loaded cartridge in my trimmer and cut the nose off by hand, smoothed it with a fine flat file and measured. Filed it flat to 2.555 or so and then finished it with the trimmer cutter. Wound up with a square flat cut. Then I "teased" my way around the end of the bullet by hand with a fine file to put a radius on the edge. The trimmer let me take them all to 2.545" OAL and I filed the edges round until they all weighed 40 grains less than when I started. This was for the last few I did - the first ones I hacksawed then filed only, but couldn't get very accurate for length so now I have a few that are identical at about 2.400" and bullets are at about 450 grs. Oh well. I had no luck with the 300 TSX's. Data made no sense to me - too much bullet in the case limiting what you can do with them. Didn't like them. These cropped big bullets I do like. Not done with them yet. Can't see a way to attach pics or I would????
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Good work Hansol!!...you suckered all these replies in on another "What is the Best Bear Gun"? thread
LOL I didn't intend to. I was actually looking for guys who have been on guided hunts or who have their time in the bush to chime in on their experience. Didn't really intend to get into ballistics and load developments and such, as I was insinuating a max. range of, oh, 20 yards...
But hey, when you post on a public forum, you get all manner of input. And a lot of this thread has been not too bad it seems, so I'll go with it.
Didn't really want ANOTHER bear defense thread, but I guess my saving grace in this case is that it wasn't started on "Well I might be walking in the bush one time, and just maybe I come across a bear sort of, and um...." etc. I'm actually going to have my ass on the line the whole time, and as such wanted the proper equipment.
Still ship to Canada,
I bought a few more boxes of 420gr Craters in Febuary. Great bullets, just fired off some 550gr in my marlin today actually.
Not that I remember, the Springfiled Trapdoor that the 45-70 was introduced in and the cartridge were first introduce in appr 1873 the only other metalic cartidge that is this old that is seeing a major resurgence in popularity is the 45 Colt.
Edward Teach
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- who cares?
Wasn't the 50-70 the original US cartridge?
Bo)
It came out in 1866 and was supplanted by the 45-70 in 1873.
As to it being the "original" that's tough to say. There was a .58 rimfire that preceeded it. Also during the Civil War they were sticking paper envelopes containing powder on bullets to use in muzzleloaders and BP revolvers, which would constitute a rudimentary cartridge.
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