6.5 Mystic #2 is All Dressed Up with New Pics.

Gotta love long weekends. Lots of sanding and filling and blocking but its done.

Paint is by Dupli Colour called Mystify (kind of appropriate) and is a prismatic paint (changes colour as you move the light). Base colour is purple but will go through blues, greens, and reddish copper. Might not come out in the pics but this stuff really does work.

Next project to get that block milled. Probably put in some bevels then look for some engraving work. Paint or anodize???? Haven't decided yet.

Full load development with other bullets and powders to come over the next few months. Hope to get out next season to a few F class and BR matches and see how we do.

Jerry

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Looking good Jerry....:)

How is the fit of the barrel to block? Close and then epoxy without any clamp stress?

I did one 35 years ago and it worked well that way. Is it done any differently today?

Dennis
 
Dennis,

The block is a nice fit and didn't need to use epoxy to hold in place. Just tightened up and the results have been superb.

The nice barrel install you did probably helped alot too :)

What sort of 223 reamers do you have? Thinking about a switch block F class (F) project to go with this open class rig. Use the same stock so only need to learn one set up. Two screws and

Tracking has been really good and the large flat rear seems to help the forend from rolling.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
Dennis,

The block is a nice fit and didn't need to use epoxy to hold in place. Just tightened up and the results have been superb.

The nice barrel install you did probably helped alot too :)

What sort of 223 reamers do you have? Thinking about a switch block F class (F) project to go with this open class rig. Use the same stock so only need to learn one set up. Two screws and

Tracking has been really good and the large flat rear seems to help the forend from rolling.

Jerry
Click to expand...

I have a .223 reamer and a .223 AI, both with regular neck diameters.
 
Lionhill, Pretty hard to shoot well when you are getting slivers in your hands and cheek. Yeah, I like it better finished. Might even shoot better...

LRC, for the psych part of the game, I decided to leave the Stevens logo on the bolt. Makes them wonder what has been done to make a "crappy" Stevens shoot (precious little really).

Now that I have a rig that easily out shoots me, gotta get out there and practise, practise, practise. More accurately, learn how to dope the conditions better.

Also, learn how to shoot on my belly again.

Jerry
 
Looking good now Jerry, really like the checkered slide stickers. If I had a BR stock, I'd steal that idea. :p

Did you notice the new 8-32 4200 has 40 MOA, it maybe my next scope. I'm leaving the Steven's logo on my sa but already picked up a Tactical la bolt body for the other Steven's, kind of regret it now. Will switch the 308 to a 223 fast twist some day but can't figure out what calibre to go with in the la. With the 90 JLK's with a BC between .560 & .590 for the 223, its hard to decide what to do with a bigger case.

Cheers
 
Thanks for the kind comments guys. Was really fun doing the finish work. Just wanted to show the before and after and what can be accomplished at home for low bucks. Still not done as that big block needs some TLC with a milling machine. Looking to do some fancy engraving/designs. Anyone know where to go?

Thinking some words and flames. You see this stuff on custom cars and bikes but have no clue who to call.

PEI Rob, IF the elite had 40min of travel, I would buy one too. Just bought their new 6X24 SF and still the same amount of elev. Maybe a first run oops but doubt it. The site lists 40min but that is not what came with the scope.

Best to test it if you can. Otherwise, even lower then/equal to the 6X24. At that point, I would go 6X24 w/mil dots which I have for all my target/LR hunting rifles.

As to future choices, really boils down to bullets. JLK maybe a high BC bullet but how do we get them? There is little point in designing around components we simply cannot get readily or affordable. Sort of like saving for a real 416 Barett. Not going to happen in this lifetime.

I really like what is happening in the 6mm world. I bet this will be the dominant LR/600m cal in 2007/2008 despite the new 6.5X47 Lapua and some lighter 6.5 bullets.

You just can't make a lighter bullet with a higher BC. Not the way we presently make bullets. For 600m, the 6.5X47 is the new hot wildcat for those devoted to the 6.5cal, although many other cartridges like the Mystic and 284 would work equally well.

In contrast the 6mm has new 115gr and possibly heavier bullets with case size pretty much the same (6XC, mod 22.250, 6X47L). Real world BC are meeting the heavy 6.5 and slightly behind the 7mm and larger bores.

So you get better BC bullets launched at similar velocity for the same recoil with the new gen 6mm. Barrel wear is higher but who cares when you are looking for the little edge.

With shrinking X and scoring rings, that reduced 1" of wind drift matters.

I would keep an eye on 6mmBR.com for latest developments in the small bore world. A very informative and current site.

Glad that this has got some response and excitement out there. True full meal deal customs are great but many cannot afford them. Just shows you what can be accomplished for moderate bucks.

Jerry
 
Ah crap. I must have clicked the wrong pic as I thought it was the 8-32 with the 40min travel. Did the box for yours have the "P" at the end? 32X with 40min travel would have been too good to be true for the dollar, should have known better. :(
 
Well, got to 500yds today. Sunny, warm but gusty crosswind and horrid mirage. Mirage indicated mid distance wind around 8 to 10MPH (going straight sideways fast). The flag showed gusting from moderate to strong. Not an ideal wind to shoot in.

Shot a few 3 rds groups with the best being 1 1/4" and 5rds group 2 1/8". Not bad but not great either. The larger groups showed shots about 1" apart then one or more pushed sideways quite a bit. Tried to hold consistent which allowed bullets to blow if conditions changed.

More testing to happen this week. A good start but I can't wait for more Lapua bullets and some calm days.

Jerry

 
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More testing this morning at 200yds. Goal was to test Fed 210M primers with the Lapua/H4831SC combo. Second to test 142gr MK with the orig receipe.

Winds were very light gusts, sunny and warm (still cooler then the last couple of weeks). Almost ideal.

Worked up the Fed210/Lapua from 46gr to 48gr. At 46.5gr, drilled them into one hole 8mm across (calibre hole reads 6mm on my tape measure). 47.0gr, it spread out again to 1". 47.5gr back into 1/2". 48.0gr another nice hole 7mm across.

Will test for velocity then how it shoots at 500yds. Only other testing will be with H4350 to see if I can get the velocity to around 2950fps and still keep the accuracy.

Next up was the 142gr MK, unsorted (I don't believe any bullet can call itself match quality if you need to sort and cull them). The only load that showed any promise at all was 46.5gr using the CCI BR2 primer at 13mm (outside to outside). Most were in the 1" or larger range. Will look at testing with a faster powder and see what happens but it doesn't look promising.

Rifle loves to shoot these Lapuas so when working up any rifle, take the time to be careful with your loading. Work up methodically and slowly watching for any clues to your progress. Use good components but understand that some barrels just don't like certain stuff.

Keep good notes and eliminate the problem areas quickly. There is little point in shooting a combo 50times if the first three rds, properly shot, don't show results. I bet all your rifles will shoot more consistently and better, take way less time to set up, and save you money.

I will not bore you with more testing as the process simply repeats itself both at short and long range. With long range testing, conditions play a larger role so you need flags and be very conscious of changing conditions (good learning skills anyways). Having a spotter can help alot too.

I am going to try and make it to the Kamloops shoot end of Sept and see how it fares in competition. That will be my next post if I go.

Feel free to ask about any part of this projects development. The key items that have created such a great shooter is a great barrel, installed properly with a chamber that fits the ammo of choice, finding a bullet that the barrel likes, then launching it with as little variation as possible.

An effecient and obviously effective cartridge design doesn't hurt either :)

Everything else is off the shelf, affordable and readily available. I can't promise you that every Savage rig will shoot this well. But I can say that of the 10 factory and customs I have recently played with, there is an excellent chance of getting a shooter.

It does make an excellent affordable platform for builiding an accurate rifle for hunting/varminting all the way to competition.

Good luck and I look forward to reading about all of your projects in the near future...

Jerry
 
Dave, grab a broom, hold it at the very top horizontally. That load you feel on your shoulder is why barrel blocks are used.

In target rifles, we use long heavy barrels. That extra weight can and will bend commercial actions (thus the growing popularity of larger custom actions) unless support is given.

Barrel blocks gives you that support. In fact, the action now carries no load at all and free floats. This allows a commercial action to be as effective as a custom action at controlling the firing of the cartridge.

The block also acts as a wonderful heat sink to help the barrel from overheating during long strings required in many matches. In a typical F class relay, you can shoot upwards of 25rds for sighters and score. That is going to heat up any barrel alot. That heat can cause some barrels to warp reducing overall performance.

That excessive barrel heat can also affect the chambered rd if left in too long. That heat can affect your load tuning.

Secondary benefit is that the unsupported length of barrel is also reduced. This helps reduce barrel whip and increases the effective rigidity of the barrel. You can now use a longer tapered barrel and still retain barrel rigidity at the same weight as the more common no taper barrel.

All this helps you maximize cartridge performance, rifle weight, rifle balance and consistency/accuracy.

Jerry
 
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Lets summarize - a barrel block can....

1) reduce stresses in and deflection of the action.
2) reduce stresses in and deflection of the stock (properly designed) and bedding.
3) allow the use of a heavier (longer and or larger diameter) barrel.

Now on to some discussion with Jerry's or mysticplayer's post.....

mysticplayer said:
This allows a commercial action to be as effective as a custom action at controlling the firing of the cartridge.
Jerry
Click to expand...

Jerry I seem recall you mentioning something about a technical degree or experience...perhaps you care to elaborate..... Sorry I just couldn't resist.

I've got a couple of minutes to help start clarifying Jerry's post.

In this instance (the use of a barrel block) helps the factory action (or any action) significantly reduce the bending stresses the action is exposed to with a "free floated barrel" hung only by the receiver. It also allows a much larger diameter barrel to be installed then would normally be used. I am unclear with Jerry's thoughts on what control aspect it is supposed to allow, but a commerical action is still a mass produced piece of metal which will does not come close to the refinements of a custom action. Quality of material, minimal clearances, concentricity, surface finish, general machining, and lock time are all exceeded in a custom action when compared to a commerical action. The likes of Kimber, Cooper and Dakota are commerically available but are borderline custom.


mysticplayer said:
The block also acts as a wonderful heat sink to help the barrel from overheating during long strings required in many matches. Jerry
Click to expand...

Wonderful?? There is no doubt the added mass of a barrel block will help reduce barrel temp, but it does so primarily at the clamping area. Naturally the use of Aluminum increases the heat transfer when compared to steel but it does so only at the clamping area.

The location of the block is somewhat flexible but it generally it is located close to the receiver. Because a barrel block is being used, a heavier barrel (sometimes longer, sometimes larger in diameter and sometimes a combination of both) is typically used. It is the heavier barrel which really influences the heat and ability to shoot longer strings. Sure the block helps, but the barrel offers a much larger overall heat sink. The barrel block is secondary and its presence does impact on the uniformity of heat distribution over the entire barrel.


mysticplayer said:
That excessive barrel heat can also affect the chambered rd if left in too long. That heat can affect your load tuning.Jerry
Click to expand...

Heat transferred to the loaded round chambered in a hot barrel has proven to influence point of impact. This has been proven in short range shooting where winners and losers are separated by .001" (or less in some cases). Whether the impact of this condition significantly influences long range results remains to be seen......the atmospheric conditions tend to determine this. Short range BR 100-200 has shown that commercial actions just do not perform as well as customs unless they are customized. Keep in mind, we are talking about continued good grouping, not the occassional good group. Aggregates really help determine how good a rifle is and as a rule commercial actions just do not cut it.

Installation of a barrel block is not for the above reason.

mysticplayer said:
Secondary benefit is that the unsupported length of barrel is also reduced. This helps reduce barrel whip and increases the effective rigidity of the barrel. You can now use a longer tapered barrel and still retain barrel rigidity at the same weight as the more common no taper barrel..Jerry
Click to expand...

The barrel block is used to enable the installation of a heavier and generally longer (or bigger diameter or both) barrel then could be installed otherwise. Why to improve accuracy...which might be considered the primary reason.

You could build a heavy duty, large diameter receiver (with conventional bedding/mounting techniques..) which could support the super heavy, large diameter, long barrel, but your bedding would be exposed to much higher stresses.

So I think we can conclude a barrel block will:

1) reduce stresses in and deflection of the action.
2) reduce stresses in and deflection of the stock (properly designed) and bedding.
3) allow the use of a heavier (longer and or larger diameter) barrel.

Jerry do you have a place to hang some dice on that rifle....:eek:
 
Let's "clarify" some more....

1) A barrel block eliminates ALL bending stress on an action by the barrel.
2) Yep, the block can eliminate the stress on a stock and bedding because you can support at the center of mass (balance point) of the barreled action. Less stress, less material in the stock and bedding needed, less weight, more barrel, less costs.
3) Only if you use a commercial action in a class that allows the extra weight. Custom actions can be sized to cope with whatever barrel installed and really shine the lighter the max weights allowed.

You don't use barrel blocks in light rifle classes, however, there are new ways of supporting a barrel that overcome this problem....

Designing a competition rifle is a balance of performance, and equipment to fit a set of rules. Let's see how it applies to LR/F class shooting competition and the weight restrictions placed on them. Why? Because that is the whole point of why the Mystic rifle was built the way it is.

Most commercial actions with one piece bolt/lugs have a common flaw. Machining tolerance allows misalignments and gaps between the action/lug/bolt. They are also not all that concentric (poor QC). Throw in the distortion that a long heavy barrel imposes and lock up is insufficient for BR pressures and inconsistent enough for teeny tiny groups.

That doesn't apply to Savages due to design and quality of manf (at least in current production). The benefits of the floating bolt head are well documented. Also, from the posts of gunsmiths on popular US bench rest and shooting forums, qc and tolerance of the Savage/Stevens action is better then just about any action mass produced today. Yes, much better then the Rem 700.

This means the 'trueness' or concentricity of the Savage/Stevens action is much better then most commercial actions (approaching custom) and any 'slop' is taken up by the floating bolt head ensuring equal and full lug contact with the action. Lock up is as tight as a custom action if not just as true. No real need to do all that blue printing common to Rem's. Don't take my word for it. Test it yourself.

Yes, there are a few rough spots in the bolt but a few minutes with some emery cloth and it runs very smoothly. Faster lock time? Change the factory spring and pin - same performance as a custom action but not necessary.

Back to the barrel block and why it works in this application.

There is little doubt that large diameter barrels are being used in Fclass to help with heat. Unfortunately, that creates its own set of problems.

Large diameter barrels (some are 1.50" full length) are much more expensive then the conventional 1.20" barrel. Hanging such a heavy barrel requires a very stout custom action (big dollars) and a hefty recoil lug (more dollars).

The requires very durable pillar bedding and does put more stress on the stock. More dollars.

The one problem area that many are discussing right now with the use of these heavy barrels is balance and tracking. You have so much weight off the front of the rifle that it wants to tip over. This makes long forends and/or rear ballast a requirement. That adds cost AND weight. If you don't add the rear ballast the rifle is unlikely to track properly which affects groups.

Long forends and/or rear ballast is 'wasted' weight which will affect how much barrel you can use in order to make the class weight. This can lower ballistic performance (shorter barrel) or the need for larger cartridges to get velocity up which creates more heat and barrel wear. There is that cost thing again.

Tapering the super thick barrel is a workable solution but the barrel will have more flex/barrel whip than one in a block.

Yet another problem, especially in Canada, availability and assembly. How many top BR barrel makers in Canada are geared up to make these super thick barrels? Unless things have changed, I didn't find anyone that would go over 1.30" so import is necessary - lots of cost. How many quality smiths have a lathe chuck to handle such large and heavy barrels? Yet more costs.

So the big heavy barrel is a solution to handling the heat of lots of shots but it causes it own set of problems/needs.

Yes, the block handles heat only in the area it is clamped. But since that is where 90% of the barrel heat is produced, not a bad place to be. You can of course make the block longer to absorb more heat but you quickly make the rifle too heavy. So this is a compromise.

Since it reduce the chamber temp, this lowers the affect on the ammo and accuracy. Lowers the wear and tear on the throat which extends the life of a barrel. That would be a significant cost savings and help with your score.

LR accuracy is about conditions but why would anyone want to increase their shot dispersion simply because their chamber got too hot? A simple variable to eliminate for no extra cost.

The block and a tapered barrel of standard diameter centers the mass of the rifle eliminating the need for a long forend and rear ballast. Without the need to support the massive barrel weight, a commercial action is viable (a trued Rem 700 or Savage shoots every bit as good as a custom if it doesn't have to support 10lbs of barrel), a less bulky stock can be used, you make the barrel longer with the same or less barrel whip.

That extra length gives you a bit more velocity meaning you can use a smaller cartridge to reach the same desired performance. This saves component costs, barrel wear, and reduces barrel heat. So far Win-Win-Win.

As long as the rifle class allows for the extra weight of the barrel block, it offers a whole lot of benefits both in performance as well as economy.

I am not the only one thinking that blocks are a great idea for F class and similar LR shooting. There is even use of related devices in point blank BR.

Since I mentioned cost so often, what is the savings in my project? (Savage vs other way):

Action ($250+$250 for block vs $1200 to 1500), 6oz Trigger ($165 vs $175 to 300), Barrel ($350 vs $450 to $600), heavy duty recoil lug ($0 vs $100)Installation ($150 - same if smith has the lathe to handle the big barrel).

So without the stock (I would build stocks for either set up), my project costs $1165. The custom heavy barrel route $2075 to $2650.

Also, custom actions usually need custom scope rings too which adds more costs but you get the point.

Performance? So far 200yd testing of this rifle shows it will shoot in the 0's. I think that is good enough to be competitive.

Jerry

PS no room for dice but maybe a few blue ribbons. Let's see if I can learn to dope the wind.
 
Jerry lets see those Aggs at 100 and 200yds. There is a BR match in Tacoma Washington on the Sept. long weekend. Lets see how you do just for fun. These would be controlled competitive results. In the 0s.....I'd have to see it to believe it...but if you post the match results from Tacoma I'll believe it! We all know how expensive talk is.....

Don't worry about the weight class....the boys would love to see your rifle out shoot their custom guns and walk away with the weekend 3 day event trophy...I'm sure they would give it to you even though you might not make weight 10.5 or 12.5 lb weight.

The guns you will be competing against have a hard time agging in the low .2s at 100/200. Maybe they need to switch to Savages.

As far as barrels go, Liljas run in below $400.00 and in the ball park with heavier diameters like 1.4".....

I don't see why someone couldn't do a 1.5" barrel in their lathe....what would be the problem? I know some smiths would be limited in the headstock but could still do the work outside of the headstock.....many do and they do very successfully.

So...why don't we see Savages at short range BR matches??

I think a set of dice would fit wonderfully on that piece.
 
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