7x57 mauser
- Thread starter mrpike
- Start date
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
I have yet to do some credible testing but from what little I have done, my stock 1908 Brazilian 7x57mm seems to like one bullet weight and my 7x57R/12ga Brno ZH 304 OU likes another. I haven't checked yet but there may be a difference in rifling rate of twist between the two that accounts for that. No biggie, each will get what it shoots best with.
[/IMG]
[/IMG]
I apologise for the lack of clarity, the second lot of figures on the first page are for 154-160gr loads(Page 165 of Nick Harvey's sixth reloading manual), the listing for BM2 (35 gr at 2295)is what Hodgdon sells as Benchmark, and it is way too quick for 160 gr projectiles in 7x57.
The second page is ADI's powder equivalent listing( ADI makes quite a lot of the Hodgdon powder), personally I find ar2209 and ar2208 cover all my needs in 7x57.
The best advice that I can give is for you to treat the manuals as a guide(not set in concrete) and use the figures to start working up loads for your own particular firearm...START LOW and with the judicious use of a Chronograph and a liberal helping of common sense you will find the right combination for your personal firearm.
Regards, J Stuart.
Hello there J Stuart. reference this old thread in CGN,
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187980&highlight=k98action&page=7
You had sent me some scanned loading date, of which I just finally been going through. You indicate the the second scan is from ADI's manual and that for you personally ar2209 and ar2208 fill most of your 7x57mm needs.
Now I have looked at the ADI powders you mentioned 2209/2208 and crossed referenced them with the powders I was complaining about in the thread of being all way under 2500 fps, and so if you look at ar2209, it is equal to H414 and H4350 according to the ADI scan. So now see what my data is below. Like I said, under 2500 fps?? so for me it does not matter if it is what it is then fine, but why are people saying 2500 plus. And if ar2209 is what you use for 160grn bullets is your velocity around the same as what Hodgen is saying below??
160 GR. NOS PART 160 H414 .284" 3.000" 40.0 2292 40,200 CUP 42.5 2405 fps 45,400 CUP
160 GR. NOS PART 160 H4350 .284" 3.000" 40.0 2314 42,100 CUP 42.5 2399 fps 45,400 CUP
Your next powder of choice ar2208 shows Varget as being it's equal. Again below varget is no where near 2500fps? Also note the red is the MAX LOADS.. WHAT AM I TO MAKE OF THIS?
160 GR. NOS PART 160 Varget .284" 3.000" 33.0 2160 41,100 CUP 35.0 2261fps 45,900 CUP
JUST REVIEWED this thread. You guys actually lost me on second reading. At least 3 to 4 of you all like H414. That is great but back to my point. The online Hodgen load data using a 160grn bullet shows H414 WITH A MAXIMUM LOADING OF 42.5 GRAINS POWDER PRODUCING 2405 FPS. So when you say work up my loads, I can only work up to 42.5 grains of powder to give me a less than 2500 fps result... IS THIS HOW I am to read this data??
Correct, but notice the pressure for that load is only 45,400 CUP. That is very mild pressure for an Oberndorf 98 Mauser.
Ted
Maybe weak action?
Pretty discreet answer, Ted! What has been said about the 7 x 57 is equally true of the 30-06. The 30-06 has been made for the last 100 years in every action, by every country that makes commercial rifles. Does it stand to reason that there are some weak actions out there, someplace? Even some of the US military Springfields were made with poorly heat treated actions and there are still some of them out there.
The ammunition manufacturers and the people who write the loading manuals have figured this out. That is why the 30-06 is loaded, and the books give loading information, that keep the pressures down into the range given for the 7 x 57.
Reputable manufacturers, say Remington, will chamber their bolt action line for, among others, the 308, the 270, the 7 x 57 and the 30-06. The 308 and the 270 will be designed to handle maybe 55,000 lbs, but the other two calibres are only supposed to be loaded to about 45,000 lbs. And no, no no, don't ever load them any higher, because the book says not to!
Pretty discreet answer, Ted! What has been said about the 7 x 57 is equally true of the 30-06. The 30-06 has been made for the last 100 years in every action, by every country that makes commercial rifles. Does it stand to reason that there are some weak actions out there, someplace? Even some of the US military Springfields were made with poorly heat treated actions and there are still some of them out there.
The ammunition manufacturers and the people who write the loading manuals have figured this out. That is why the 30-06 is loaded, and the books give loading information, that keep the pressures down into the range given for the 7 x 57.
Reputable manufacturers, say Remington, will chamber their bolt action line for, among others, the 308, the 270, the 7 x 57 and the 30-06. The 308 and the 270 will be designed to handle maybe 55,000 lbs, but the other two calibres are only supposed to be loaded to about 45,000 lbs. And no, no no, don't ever load them any higher, because the book says not to!
Last edited:
Ummm, ok I wish we could just stop talking in code here.. Ok, 45.400 CUP is the recorded pressure (By pressure measuring instrumentation) that was measured by the Hodgen testing in controlled conditions. So they publish a max load for a reason I assume, and what they have publish for you and I to use is MAX Powder 42.5 grains which will produce 45.400 cup. Do we agree on that point?
Now what you are saying is that 45,400cup is a mild pressure for my 98 action. Ok I can agree with that on principal.
Problem is, if I decide to load my rounds hotter than the published MAX of 42.5grains of H414 TO ACHIEVE A MORE THAN MILD PRESSURE FOR MY 98 ACTION SAY 48,000CUP, I would be going into UNCHARTED TERRITORY BASICALLY OFF THE BOOK (THROUGH THAT IN THE GARBAGE) AND PLAYING A GUESSING GAME. Granted I could look for signs of over pressure (As I would have no way to confirm what pressure my theroitical 50 grains of H414 is generating), and I COULD also measure my velocity easily enough with my Chrono,
So here is the POPPER.... "WHEN IN THIS UNCHARTED WORLD IS THIS WHAT YOU GUYS ARE REFERRING TO AS WORKING UP YOUR LOADS"
ANOTHERWORDS, WORK UP YOUR LOADS SLOWLY ETC ETC, REFERING TO WHEN YOU ARE LOADING BEYOND THE MAXIMUM PUBLISHED LOAD DATA?
Because when I told you all that I can't get 2500 fps for my 160 grain bullet that is BECAUSE the published load data is not there.
So when you come back and say BS, we do get 2500 plus for H414 USING 160GRN BULLETS, then you are ignoring the max load data and going beyond that...
Man can someone please just tell me point blank that what I am saying here is correct or not....
what YOU must be doing I guess to get your velocity above 2500fps
7x57
Can somebody tell me what a Win. Model 54 7x57 is worth,1928, it has not been altured for a scope as the action is not drilled, has a peep site and barrel is mint, less than 300 rounds been shot and been stored since 1960, stock has been notched for a different peep site??? Thanks.
Can somebody tell me what a Win. Model 54 7x57 is worth,1928, it has not been altured for a scope as the action is not drilled, has a peep site and barrel is mint, less than 300 rounds been shot and been stored since 1960, stock has been notched for a different peep site??? Thanks.
I've got a great (new) article on "reading pressure" that explains a lot of why trying to guess pressure can make your hair grey. You're welcome to borrow it (send me a pm).
Because pressure is influenced by things like chamber and throat dimensions, it will vary from rifle to rifle, all other things being equal. That is precisely why everyone will tell you to "work up" your loads starting from what are "guaranteed safe" loads. I have one 7x57 that will handle 51.5 grains of H414 and another one where 50 is as high as I'll go. Same story with two .270's that I've got - a max load in one is about two grains less than what the other one will handle without exhibiting signs of excessive pressure.
If you were to ask the companies that publish data, the issue of products liability will be front and centre in their rationale for where they draw the line.
Since there are bound to be careless handloaders who will simply take the published max load and put "whatever" bullet in front of it and then light it up with whatever primers that they happen to have on hand the published data has to allow for that kind of variation.
If you tailor your own ammo, you can be a lot more careful and deliberate in the components that you use. With a caliber like the 7x57 you can generally improve on the published data with your particular rifle.
Certainly, if you want to play it very safe, simply stick to the most current data published by whatever manufacturer you want to trust. But, if you're shooting a well-built modern (i.e. 98) Mauser, you'll probaby be missing out on some performance.
Because pressure is influenced by things like chamber and throat dimensions, it will vary from rifle to rifle, all other things being equal. That is precisely why everyone will tell you to "work up" your loads starting from what are "guaranteed safe" loads. I have one 7x57 that will handle 51.5 grains of H414 and another one where 50 is as high as I'll go. Same story with two .270's that I've got - a max load in one is about two grains less than what the other one will handle without exhibiting signs of excessive pressure.
If you were to ask the companies that publish data, the issue of products liability will be front and centre in their rationale for where they draw the line.
Since there are bound to be careless handloaders who will simply take the published max load and put "whatever" bullet in front of it and then light it up with whatever primers that they happen to have on hand the published data has to allow for that kind of variation.
If you tailor your own ammo, you can be a lot more careful and deliberate in the components that you use. With a caliber like the 7x57 you can generally improve on the published data with your particular rifle.
Certainly, if you want to play it very safe, simply stick to the most current data published by whatever manufacturer you want to trust. But, if you're shooting a well-built modern (i.e. 98) Mauser, you'll probaby be missing out on some performance.
Thank you A-ZONE. I think you have given me the answer I was looking for. Now I have a starting point. I will start my testing using the Hodgen max load for 160grn bullets and work up from there.
All I have to do to be careful is be sure to check for signs of over pressure, and go from there. But this is not as easy as I thought. It's going to take a few rounds at different loadings to get it right...
I will try to be as thorough as possible and get back to you all.
All I have to do to be careful is be sure to check for signs of over pressure, and go from there. But this is not as easy as I thought. It's going to take a few rounds at different loadings to get it right...
I will try to be as thorough as possible and get back to you all.
You have already been given several sources:
That's six published sources! How many do you need?
Ted
STOP RIGHT THERE.......DO NOT START YOUR LOADS AT THE MAXIMUM LOADS unless you know what it is doing and is safe in your particular firearm, ALWAYS start at a lower load than maximum, then work your loads up from there.
NEVER take for granted that your particular firearm will handle maximum loads, ALWAYS work loads up(saves your eyesight), even if the firearm was made yesterday and is in pristine condition.
Old mate it costs bugger all to load a few extra rounds so that you may verify the safety of your circumstance.
J Stuart.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
X2!! I think he probably ment start at the minimum load, or at least I hope so. If not, the above is the #1 bit of info given so far.
- Location
- Vancouver Island BC
I always start with the starting loads when I change bullet weight and or powder manufacturer. As J. Stuart said,don't start out at max loads.
As J. Stuart said,don't start out at max loads.As was posted on the other thread, (http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1867394#post1867394) don't start at the max load. The safe way to proceed is to start with the recommended starting load.
If it has been in your family or the property of a friend it is way too valuable to sell, if on the other hand you are being offered one then the value is set at the cheapest price you can haggle for.
Either way, it is a desirable firearm.
Last edited:
K98, the point that you are missing entirely is context. To a new reloader, the max indicated in reloading manuals should be taken as gospel truth.
If for some reason, the manuals give a conservative number for a certain caliber, experienced handloaders may choose to go into uncharted territory. Notice the "uncharted" bit? Usually, this means going off of less reliable sources (such as internet forums), or by reading pressure signs. How do you discern that what you're reading as truth? How can you tell if the cartridge you're shooting will even show pressure signs before blowing up your rifle? EXPERIENCE! There are some reloading experts on this forum who will share their recipes for "hot" reloads, but it's entirely up to you to determine if you're near the bleeding edge or not.
If for some reason, the manuals give a conservative number for a certain caliber, experienced handloaders may choose to go into uncharted territory. Notice the "uncharted" bit? Usually, this means going off of less reliable sources (such as internet forums), or by reading pressure signs. How do you discern that what you're reading as truth? How can you tell if the cartridge you're shooting will even show pressure signs before blowing up your rifle? EXPERIENCE! There are some reloading experts on this forum who will share their recipes for "hot" reloads, but it's entirely up to you to determine if you're near the bleeding edge or not.
