90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

SteveB said:
According to my software program you could be running Varget up to about 24.4 grains before you approach the high pressure levels at 64,000 psi. It might be an idea to run a pressure trial then accuracy OCW test. Also, I have been thinking of trying H4350 the same as your thoughts. I tried H4350 with 80 grain bullets and while the accuracy was good, Varget was better at higher velocity so I dropped the idea. My rifle has a longer throat so I will try H4350 on Friday. Steve
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I hope your not going to be messing with the 22BR load you have. :eek:
 
Nope, not all all. I was referring to my 223 I had built in the spring before the 22BR. I want to play with my 223 for Sue to shoot at the "Running". Right now I am shooting 82 grain Bergers in it. Would be nice to get both rifles shooting H4350 and 90 grainers. That way I can sell you all the rest of my Varget!! BTW, have another 22BR coming, bought the XR100 that Mark had. Steve
 
Look forward to your testing on the 90's in a 223. That would be very interesting.

If throated long enough, you should be able to squeeze 26gr of H4350 into the case. Not sure what the load would be but you have the space.

Very interesting....

Jerry
 
Shot some more Berger 90 VLDs at 300 yards out of the .223 yesterday with RL-15 and N-550.

I shot three 3-shot groups of incrementing by .2 Gr charge weight, then five single shots incrementing the charge weight by .1 Gr to see where the pressure signs started. (I never hit any)

RL-15 weights were 22.6, 22.8 and 23.0, followed by singles of 23.1 - 23.5. The groups were no hell, roughly 2 - 3", 22.6 was the best, about 2" wide but no vertical dispersion. It was quite windy. The highest charge, 23.5 Gr of RL-15 resulted in a velocity of 2675 fps.

Then tried three 3-shot groups with N-550 at 23.4, 23.6 and 23.8, followed by singles of 23.9 - 24.3. I got a 3-shot group around .5" with 23.6, and the highest N-550 charge weight of 24.3 resulted in a velocity of 2680 fps.

Lapua cases on their third firing, lit by CCI BR4, 20 thou jump. With either powder at the highest charge weight there were no pressure signs, and there is still room for more in the cases....The saga continues.......
 
mmline it's nice to see your testing results here - thanks! What is your approximate C.O.A.L.?

Will you have the opportunity to test your ammo at 1000 yards?

Clint got up into the low to mid 2800s with his 6.5" twist (presumably 30" long) barrel. It's nice to see that you're not seeing pressure signs yet and that you're nearly at 2700fps in your 26" barrel. Even if you can't get any more velocity (though you probably can), you've got a powerful ballistic combination already. If you can get good uniform velocities (10+ shot extreme spread of under 40fps, or SDs no higher than the low teens), it'll be really interesting to see whether or not your load performs well at 1000 yards - is this bullet plagued by 1000 yard gremlins, or not??
 
According to the Weather Channel 7C, Rel Hum 53%, Pressure 102.5kpa. Overcast w/ sunny breaks. Winds were very light to nil.

Got out to my LR spot. Chronied my reg. 80gr Amax load and got 2675fps which is a bit slower then norm.

Chronied the 23.4gr and 23.5gr of Varget behind the 90gr VLD Berger and got 2599fps both times.

Dialed up 34 mins on the Sightron and went for the Gopher 1036yds (Swarovski LRF) with the Amax. Just off windage wise. A few more shots to confirm arriving on target.

Sent the 90gr VLD and they landed short. Needed 1 mildot to hit so approx 3.6mins more elevation. Accuracy with the 23.4gr was good. 23.5gr was irratic.

Out to 1180yds, 23.4gr was kicking up dirt in the 'same' spot. I would estimate, a milk jug type accuracy. NO issues with vertical - just wind. Remember I am using a bipod and not very good at it either.

23.5gr was not good sending bullets vertical a few ft above and below POA. Doesn't take much but 0.1gr is enough to get this 223 out of tune and stringing badly.

So the 8 twist (Shilen) under my elevation/conditions has no issue shooting these Bergers way out there. The speed is about right given the very short OAL and barrel.

Primers were definitely flattening out so we are nearing peak pressures for this set up. The throat is not long enough to seat out to really increase powder volume but I will give some H4350 a test shortly.

Accuracy looks very promising...

Jerry
 
mmilne said:
Shot some more Berger 90 VLDs at 300 yards out of the .223 yesterday with RL-15 and N-550.

I shot three 3-shot groups of incrementing by .2 Gr charge weight, then five single shots incrementing the charge weight by .1 Gr to see where the pressure signs started. (I never hit any)

RL-15 weights were 22.6, 22.8 and 23.0, followed by singles of 23.1 - 23.5. The groups were no hell, roughly 2 - 3", 22.6 was the best, about 2" wide but no vertical dispersion. It was quite windy. The highest charge, 23.5 Gr of RL-15 resulted in a velocity of 2675 fps.

Then tried three 3-shot groups with N-550 at 23.4, 23.6 and 23.8, followed by singles of 23.9 - 24.3. I got a 3-shot group around .5" with 23.6, and the highest N-550 charge weight of 24.3 resulted in a velocity of 2680 fps.

Lapua cases on their third firing, lit by CCI BR4, 20 thou jump. With either powder at the highest charge weight there were no pressure signs, and there is still room for more in the cases....The saga continues.......
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Was that at 300yards as well?


Jerry,
Very interesting to see that 8 twist working for you. What elevation are you shooting at?
Any chance to get some measurable groups on paper, say at 600 or 800m?
 
Yes, the .5 group was at 300 Yards. I'll scan the target tonight and get the exact MOA and spread values.

Base to ogive length was 1.920, in my rifle this equates to 20 thou jump according to the Stoney Point gauge. COAL was 2.545.

The range where I'm shooting restricts me to 300 yards. I'm hoping to bite the bullet and join the DRCA and shoot at Connaught if I can get this 90 grain thingy working.
 
Budweiser360 said:
Was that at 300yards as well?


Jerry,
Very interesting to see that 8 twist working for you. What elevation are you shooting at?
Any chance to get some measurable groups on paper, say at 600 or 800m?
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See what I can do. But given the accuracy already determined by others shooting this bullet, mechanical accuracy is not an issue. I feel that load charges are critical to success with the 223 and this is more likely the cause of accuracy problems at LR.

Varying the charge accurately by 0.1gr showed a marked change in stringing today. From milk jug sized hits to can't hit a sheet of plywood. If the scale used had an error of +/- 0.1gr, you could easily have very big dispersion with some rds on the large side of the scale error.

I am guessing elevation around 3000ft. Maybe someone can google earth Summerland garbage dump cause I am at very similar elevation.

My target area is at an incline so the bullets are landing several hundred feet higher. I really don't think it would make a difference.

Going to 1200yds, should push me into the transonic range for this muzzle velocity. There were no obvious tracking issues in the 4 shots fired.

Can do more testing but I feel this combo will stay stable and shoot well under my conditions.

Jerry
 
I have been watching MMilne shooting with his Factory Savage and he has been shooting some stunningly fine groups at 300 yards with the 90gr Bergers, if he can get speed up he will give the 308win in FF class some real competition. There is 2 other fellows with fast twist 223's playing with the 90gr bullets. one shoots a 40x with 28" Hart 1/7 and other has Rem 700 with a 1/77 twist 28"Kreiger I watch the Kreiger shoot a 5 shot group at 300 and measured it with benchrest group calipers. .520" the Hart barreled shot a .600" 80grThese guys know about loading and good shooting skills. These fast twist 223's a some awsome guns no second seat to 6ppc or BR's 100 yard groups are .2" and smaller consitantly with 80gr Bergers & Sierras
I am waiting for mine in build right now 30" with 1/7 twist can't wait to try these 90gr bullets.ordered mine from Ian Robertson Robertson Composites he made a friend a 6.5x47 lapua that shoots .5" at 300 and extreemly well at 1000y.
Very interesting thread going here
manitou
 
90VLD-N550-23dot4.jpg


Here's the best group from Wednesday with 23.4 Grains of N-550.

Other good groups I've had along the way are:

.187 MOA, 21.5 Gr of H4895
.118 MOA, 22.0 Gr or RL-15
.344 MOA, 22.4 Gr of Varget

For now, I'm going to stick with RL-15 and N-550 and try and determine how high I can go. Once I know that then I'll try and workup loads for both powders that work and post the results. Now that I have a chrony the whole things seems like a real science class project...

One credible source of info is a newsletter "The Marksman, Winter Spring 2008 Edition" on the DCRA website, it seems to indicate the velocities in/around 2830 fps are possible with 26.2 Gr on N-550.

Of course, once/if I find something that works well at 300 yards I'll have to try it at longer distances.... SAFETY FIRST!
 
I finally got out to try some more 90 Gr Bergers with N-550 yesterday.

Conditions were not optimal, winds were quite gusty alternating with snow ;-(

Lapua Cases, N-550 Powder, CCI BR4 primers, 3 shots of each at 300 Yards...

25.2 Gr, Avg Vel 2741 fps, ES 35 fps Vertical .375", horizontal 2"
25.4 Gr, Avg Vel 2771 fps, ES 44 fps Vertical 1", horizontal .5" (two holes touching, one flyer)
25.6 Gr, Avg Vel 2784 fps, ES 11 fps Vertical 1", horizontal 1.5"

Then one shot each of

25.8 Gr - Vel 2789 fps
26.0 Gr - Vel 2836 fps

There were no pressure signs with anything.....

Given the wind and how cold I was I wouldn't read too much into the accuracy results, but it sure looks like there are some possabilities here. At 2741 fps out of the muzzle it's still over 1300 fps at 1000 yards. But it's sure looking like I need to get a 20 MOA scope base if I'm going to try and go for distance ;-)

Does Mr Mystic have any more results with Varget yet???
 
those results are promising. Will be intersting to hear how pressures change as the temps get higher, and how ES holds up over a longer string.

get you some Burris Signature Zee's w/ offset inserts!
 
manitou210 said:
I have been watching MMilne shooting with his Factory Savage and he has been shooting some stunningly fine groups at 300 yards with the 90gr Bergers, if he can get speed up he will give the 308win in FF class some real competition.
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He's already outperforming any .308/155, wind-drift wise. His short-range accuracy looks promising, at least for the small number of shots groups he's shot so far. It'll be interesting to see two things as he continues his testing - firstly, are 10, 15 or 20 shot groups still good, and secondly, are the groups at 800m and 900m any good?

Jerry, the extreme charge weight sensitivity you've seen (0.1 grain making or breaking a load!!) is worrying, please let us know if that turns out to be real or not. And if it is real, that just about sinks the usefulness of that particular load combo, in which case I hope you are able to find another good loading, perhaps a hotter one.
 
mmilne, I posted my results a few pages back.

Shooting out of my 22" 8 twist Shilen, I got 2600fps with Varget and excellent SR accuracy. The OAL is mag length so the bullet is seated WELL into the case.

In a longer barrel and much longer throat, I can see getting over 2700fps without much issue. The bullet was seated off the lands and it still shot very well.

Was very surprised that the bullet stabilized at SR so I pushed it out to 1200yds. NO issue.

I have not shot alot more since that test as the barrel and chamber are no where near ideal for F class. However, it was a proof of concept to see if the bullet would even stabilize.

If funds allow, I will see about getting a barrel more suitable for F class shooting and do some more testing. I think that Varget to H4350 are going to work. N550 may just be the right mix but it is not easy for me to get so will favour the Hodgdon powders for now.

You may want to try CCI 450 as the temp falls. I have had issues in the cold with the BR4.

Looks like you are dialing out the vertical nicely despite being cold. Nice shooting.

Looking forward to more testing.

Jerry
 
rnbra-shooter said:
Jerry, the extreme charge weight sensitivity you've seen (0.1 grain making or breaking a load!!) is worrying, please let us know if that turns out to be real or not. And if it is real, that just about sinks the usefulness of that particular load combo, in which case I hope you are able to find another good loading, perhaps a hotter one.
Click to expand...


I have been doing this load tuning with everything from the 223 to the 300RUM. For LR shooting, it really seems to help.

It really isn't any different to those who adjust their seating depths a few thou in and out or that use different levels of jam to tune a load. Except, I feel my scale is far more repeatable then a seating die or a moving throat.

The powder increments do change the tuning and orientation of the group. It is repeatable and shows up in pretty much every rifle I have shot over the last 5 yrs.

Factory rifles are less obvious then match barreled rigs but then they aren't as accurate.

Remember that when I am tuning my 223's, the overall group size doesn't change much from 0.1gr to another 0.1gr BUT the orientation of the group does. There are far more shots going vertical then in the other load.

This shows up at LR. At 300m, my best loads show vertical well under 1/4 min. If conditions are nice and I am shooting well, many groups are just one horizontal line.

Use of a quality scale is critical. Most reloading scales and powder measures are way too coarse.

Jerry
 
Jerry you are so right on scales. You must have scale with .01 or .02 tens accuraccy beam scales and and RCBS charge master are mostly only good to 1/10 gr
Shooting at 1000 yards last summer I had to finnish off round of 15 shots with 2/10 less powder in load of RL 15 & 75gr Berger VLD that 2/10gr load was 2 min lower at 1000y
manitou
 
Jerry, what scale are you using to weigh you powder loads?

Any mainstream (RCBS, Lyman, Hornady, Ohaus, etc) beam scales are going to be accurate to plus or minus 1/10th of a grain giving a possible deviation of up to .3 grains between loads.

Unless you are using a laboratory scale that is accurate to plus or minus hundredths of a grain there is no guarantee that your loads are exactly the same every time.

That being said, we do put a lot of trust in our beam and/or electronic scales that we are getting the same loads every time. I certainly can't afford to get myself a scale that is going to be accurate into the 1/100ths and I am not that anal that I feel I need one. I could see myself going mad trying to cut my Varget granules into pieces if I got one of those scales and extending my loading time from a couple of hours to a couple of weeks.
 
Well, good news boys and girls, the scale I am using is likely LESS money then the popular digi scales offered by the main manfs.

I am using a Jennings MACK 20 digi scale. It is rated to +/- 0.04gr so the error listed in the device is under 0.1gr at its worse.

Based on the scale readout, I can within a kernel of H4831SC and 2 kernels of Varget. Close enough for me.

Now is this scale perfect or as good as real analytical scales costing mega bucks - NOPE. But it is a far cry better then the usual beam and digi stuff that is commonly used.

Many jewellers scales have similar ratings but are either unreliable or too small. Check the specs carefully especially if you decide to do the Ebay route. I went with a name brand serviced in NA with a platform that is big enough for what we want.

I figure worse case due to me or the scale, my loads vary within 0.1gr. In my testing, my vertical has shrunk dramatically because of this switch especially when I started pushing my 223 out to a mile.

Now to figure out how to shrink the lefts and rights....Richard, got any suggestions :)

Jerry
 
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