90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

Well the .284 Shehane will push them 3050-3100 and since they don't have a the "magnum" classification they are still F-class capable. Not sure where the 7mm STW falls into that but I believe they are capable of sending them at 3200, I could be wrong on that. The recoil on that pig would not be fun without a brake though, but it sure IS fun WITH a brake:D

However, the 7mm's aren't the topic of convo here and I really can't wait to get shooting the 90's in my .223, then try and pick the wildcat I want to push them over the top with.
 
Ran some numbers in a 223 for you guys. 26" barrel, 2.614" OAL, in a 1.759" case, 28.8 gr. H2O case capacity. RL17 at 25.4gr for 2836 fps, H414 at 25.8 gr. for 2811 fps., RL15 at 23.9 gr. for 2799 fps. These are staying at a reasonable compressed load based on the above case volume. If anyone wants give me your case volume, OAL, bullet, barrel, and I can run other numbers. My quickload program is version V1.0.5.
 
Mysticplayer, quickload predicts your 22/250 with the powders you have used is at max pressure in that 3200-3240 fps. range. RL22 should give you 3300 at max pressure. I realize this is not field tested, but may be worth trying.
 
The 284 shehane is a slightly improved 284 case so it is still smaller then an improved 280 case or RSAUM.

I know there are shooters who get eye opening velocities but there are plenty of 7 magnums with reams of pressure data that shows a case volume of this size will have a hard time pushing over 2950fps even in a 30" barrel at magnum pressures.

Kind of wanted a disclaimer out there so newbies understand there is a substantial difference in load pressures that some run.

I built a modified 280AI ( 7 Mystic ) and pushed these 180gr to 2825fps from a 24" shilen. If it had been a 30" pipe, getting 2900fps would have been possible. Maybe a bit faster.

Case volume is nearly identical to the RSAUM so there is plenty of data to work from. My loads were similar.

There was no pressure left unused and I would have used a few grains more powder then the Shehane.

I am presently shooting a 7RM and the 180gr Bergers over Retumbo and another Shilen. This time 26". At over 3000fps I am burning WAY more powder then either the Mystic or Shehane. In a 30" pipe, 3100+fps would be no problem with this chambering.

Not trying to be critical but I sometimes wonder on the posted performance of some shooters.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
The 284 shehane is a slightly improved 284 case so it is still smaller then an improved 280 case or RSAUM.

I know there are shooters who get eye opening velocities but there are plenty of 7 magnums with reams of pressure data that shows a case volume of this size will have a hard time pushing over 2950fps even in a 30" barrel at magnum pressures.

Kind of wanted a disclaimer out there so newbies understand there is a substantial difference in load pressures that some run.

I built a modified 280AI ( 7 Mystic ) and pushed these 180gr to 2825fps from a 24" shilen. If it had been a 30" pipe, getting 2900fps would have been possible. Maybe a bit faster.

Case volume is nearly identical to the RSAUM so there is plenty of data to work from. My loads were similar.

There was no pressure left unused and I would have used a few grains more powder then the Shehane.

I am presently shooting a 7RM and the 180gr Bergers over Retumbo and another Shilen. This time 26". At over 3000fps I am burning WAY more powder then either the Mystic or Shehane. In a 30" pipe, 3100+fps would be no problem with this chambering.

Not trying to be critical but I sometimes wonder on the posted performance of some shooters.

Jerry
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Well, you would have a better idea than I, I can only go off of what I research with no actual hands on testing.

All this 7mm talk does make me think of a 22x284 though :eek: Too much friggin' time on my hands...
 
pockets said:
I have been thinking of a project like this for a year and a half. Taking my 220 Swift and improving it with 40 degree shoulder (AI), 30" 1/7 barrel. Playing with quickload program predicts at 3.0" OAL, RL25, H1000 3500 fps, and N560, N570, Retumbo 3600 fps.
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Might want to run a 1:7.7" twist instead (which will be enough to stabilize 90VLDs, even at sea level in cold weather). No sense blowing up bullets, if you can possibly avoid it...
 
Look up 22-243 Middlestead, 22Cheetah and similar necked down 243/6mm Rem wildcats.

They were very popular in the 70's and 80's and they got some silly speeds with lighter bullets.

The cases are absolutely massive for this cal and if you are going to get speed, these will do it.

you will definitely see how fast these bullets can fly before they blow up.

I'm thinking 3500fps then puff... When you buy 3 barrels at a time, you will get free shipping :)

Jerry
 
22/284 running std 284 pressures of 63817 psi, 28" pipe, quickload predicts 3487 fps using Retumbo. 61.84gr H2O capacity case.
 
Great weather so snuck out to do some testing at 200yds. H4350 is fast but pretty fussy. When the temps were low, I got speed and decent accuracy. Now that ambient has risen about 5C, I have had to dial back the loads and the speed too. Charge is getting too low for my liking.

So I went back to H4831SC and started to work up. Happy to report that the best accruacy now is also the fastest. With 40.5gr of H4831SC, CCI BR2 and well used Win cases, I am pushing 3250fps average and getting groups in the 3/8" to 5/8" range in light winds.

did some multiple groups today and it repeated quite nicely. at 200yds, this definitely meets my goals and will test at 300m to see how it holds up further out.

However, learnt something pretty obvious - lots of powder down a small bore means cleaning more often :)

Shot a nice 1/2" cluster with 1 out...uuummm????

Next group was a very pretty 2" group with the same load - ooops!!!!

A bit of cleaning and all is well again with the final group. DUH!

Tried 40.7gr but the group opened up quite a bit (yes, shot this with a cleaned bore) so it looks like 40.5 is THE load at this temp range.

Now to test how many shots the bore can tolerate before fouling out and how much cleaning it needs to get back into the groove.

Then of course to track how temps affect the tuning and how much I will need to drop the charge as we get into the warmer months. But I will get back to my 223 first :)

Seems to all be working out...

Jerry
 
Hey Jerry,

I know RL-19 isn't temp extreme, but it tends to burn so clean you might want to give it a look.

Is H-1000 too slow?
 
Any news on the 223 front?

I was looking at rebarreling my savage 12FVSS to a 1-7 shilen to use the 90 Grain VLD bullets. I ran the numbers through the JBM ballistics calculator and at max velocities listed and looks like its basically a wash between the berger 90 and the 75 Grain Amax. I have read all the post in this thread mystic is getting velocities up by lengthening the throat, (which is something that I can not do) and manitou posted some results coming from the states.

Its a new season and is anyone winning f/tr with a 223 here in Canada?
 
Hmmm that is a bit of a surprising result Jason. What velocities did you use for the 75 and the 90, and what BCs? (those of course will determine the results). Apparently with long barrels and long throats it is possible to get 2800fps with the 90s (though I realize published Hodgdon data indicates low 2500s).

Probably the most "fair" way of comparing bullets of different weights is to use the "constant muzzle energy" guideline that Bryan Litz suggested - this is a good way to assume equal peak pressures, so that you're doing a fair apples-to-apples comparison.

So whatever velocity you might use for a 75 grain bullet, multiply that by sqrt(75/90) = 0.913 to get an appropriate assumed velocity for a 90 grain bullet.

Using this rule, if a 90 grain bullet can be pushed to 2800fps, the "fair" number to compare is a 75 grain bullet at 3067fps.

The other factor is the BCs. If you use JBM, use the "(Litz)" figures and you'll get probably the most realistic results. Not only are all the "(Litz)" numbers done using the same test methodology (i.e. they are apples-to-apples, wherease Hornady vs. Berger vs. Lapua vs. Sierra factory numbers are most definitely no apples-to-apples, for a variety of good and valid reasons), but they also use the G7 drag model which will give much more realistic prediction of the point at which the bullet becomes sonic, and also somewhat-more-realistic long-range wind drift calculations.

Using 75 Berger VLD (Litz) @ 3067fps I have JBM predicting 1328fps and 88.2" of wind drift at 900m.

Using 90 Berger VLD (Litz) @ 2800fps I have JBM predicting 1468fps and 70.9" of wind drift at 900m.

You ask a very good and direct question Its a new season and is anyone winning f/tr with a 223 here in Canada? and the answer is that I have not heard of it being done. I'm sure it could be done, now or in the future, but take that for whatever it's worth. Perhaps it's just us shooters being conservative, or perhaps there is a "good" reason. Who knows, eh? ;-)

BTW the .308 round to compare to is a 185 Berger BT (Litz) at 2791fps (the energy-equivalent of a 155 at 3050fps). This gives a 900m speed of 1485fps and 69.2" of wind drift - in other words, a dead heat tie with the .223/90 @ 2800fps. There is potential for the .308 to eventually pull ahead of the .223; if and when a bullet company makes a proper heavy .308 match bullet, i.e. a 230-250 grain bullet that is comparable to the Berger 185BT or the very best 155s, then the .308 will be a bit ahead of the game. A 250 grain .308 bullet at 2401fps is going to be less pleasantly shootable.


EDIT: I just notice that in the calcs I did I used slightly-different-from-std-atmospheric conditions; that won't change the relative rankings though.

Also, I ran the comparable number for a hypothetical good .308 250 grain match bullet at 2401fps and got 1479fps and 59.4" of drift at 900m - that's about the limit of what one might expect from a .308.
 
I was using 2920 fps for the 75 Grain Amax my fastest load with Varget with the least amount of vertical dispersion in my savage 12 FVSS. Comparing that to 2447 FPS Maximum load listed by hodgson for a 90 Grain VLD with Varget.

I was trying to get a handle on whether rebarreling would significantly improve ballistics.
 
Jason, To answer you question about who's winning w/ the 90, it's still very early days. Paul VN (Manitou) and his brother are doing very well with thiers this year. I believe Paul won in Kingston, and very nearly did again at the Quebec provincials. The fact is, FTR is seeing lots of experimenting right now. Last year 155 class bullets- mostly the 155.5 berger, 155 lapua, and the odd new 155 smk- dominated. Now we're seeing some folks sticking to the 155's, and lots of others experimenting w/ 185 BT, 208 amax,a nd even 210 bergers and JLK's. There jsut isn't enough data to make concrete statements, although most seem to think the 185 BT will be the new baseline to compare others to. If you want to stay w/ .223, then a 1-7" throated long enough to shoot the 90's is you best bet. This way you can shoot pretty much everything from 75 amax and berger VLD, through the 80 VLDs, even if the 90's become too much of a pain.

If Jerry can help get a suitable throat in a Shilen prefit, you are laughing. If he can't I'd still hold out for a 1-7", and find a smith who understands your thoating needs.
 
JBD, if you are competing in F TR, new barrel absolutely. Drift is your enemy. It will have a greater effect then mechanical accuracy. A tack driving rig in the 1's shooting a low BC bullet is going to be way harder to drive at distance then a gun shooting in the 3's with a very high BC bullet at speed.

If shooting in a factory class, it'll work just fine. I have a VLP that I am setting up as a loaner and it is right around 3/8 - 1/2" at 200yds with the 75gr Amax. Will do some testing with Berger VLD's next but don't think I am likely to improve on this.

The further you go, the more you see BC making a difference in retained speed and reduced wind drift.

Daniel, I think it would be pretty tough to get a 308 to push a 185gr bullet that fast and not run some serious pressures. Would tuning start to get finicky?

That is why I am excited about the 223 and these 90gr VLD's. It is easier to get the speed in relative terms. Yes, pressures are indeed elevated but not to extremes and the smaller case head transfer less load to the action.

Recoil is substantially less as would barrel heat - those two features alone would help shooters improve on their scores on average.

The development time line is very slow for new cartridge/bullets but I expect to see more and more showing up. The big hurdle was figuring out how to tune the smaller case and better scales was the solution. Then there was testing twists, powders, OAL, etc. Takes a while and not every shooter wants to go through this level of R&D.

I figure it takes me a year to develop something new. That is if I don't get distracted by other projects :)

Jerry
 
jasonburnsdundee said:
I was using 2920 fps for the 75 Grain Amax my fastest load with Varget with the least amount of vertical dispersion in my savage 12 FVSS.
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Good choice.

Comparing that to 2447 FPS Maximum load listed by hodgson for a 90 Grain VLD with Varget.
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Fair enough. But if you are able to get 2920fps with 75s in your rifle, then you ought to be able to get 2665fps with 90s, at the same pressure (with a proviso being that you might have to lengthen the throat; even if you have no plan on doing this, for comparison sake you should assume that this is possible).

I was trying to get a handle on whether rebarreling would significantly improve ballistics.
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Rebarelling (as in getting a 7" twist which would allow you to shoot 90s, versus the 9" twist you presently have which allows 75s) would allow you to get a 20-24% improvement in your ballistics.

Today your 75VLDs are giving you about the same performance as a.308 shooting 155s.

If you are able to get 90VLDs to shoot for you, you would move into .308/185BT class

My summary:

- you can compete and win against .308 shooters using your existing barrel and 75VLDs @ 2920fps.

- if you install a 1-7" twist barrel and shoot 90s successfully, you will have a very real (~20%-24%) ballistic advantage over what you are getting today.
 
mysticplayer said:
Daniel, I think it would be pretty tough to get a 308 to push a 185gr bullet that fast and not run some serious pressures. Would tuning start to get finicky?
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With 30" barrels, people successfully shoot 155s as fast as 3050fps. Whatever pressure that develops (and I will be the first to predict/say that it will be in excess of SAAMI/CIP limits), that same peak pressure will be able to drive a 185 bullet to sqrt(155/185)=91.5% of that speed, i.e. 2791 fps.

Matt, I think you have successfully been shooting 185BTs in your 30" .308 recently; what velocities are you running? Also, how easily were you able to tune up a good load with your 185BTs, and how did that compare to your ridiculously-easy experience with Berger 155.5s?

That is why I am excited about the 223 and these 90gr VLD's. It is easier to get the speed in relative terms. Yes, pressures are indeed elevated but not to extremes and the smaller case head transfer less load to the action.
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I too am excited by the potential. BTW case head thrust isn't (or ought not to be) a problem in either case. The limit to safe pressure will be primer piercing or permanent case head deformation (primer pockets getting loose).

I am glad to see at least a few shooters are working on figuring out how to make the .223/90 shoot well reliably. The sooner we learn how, the better!
 
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