Almost nothing left in a 9mm Rifle

[UpperCanadaRebellion]

And a revolver carbine would require moon clips to run 9mm, so a 1873 SAA style loading gate revolver wouldn’t work.

Or you’d need a complex detent in the cylinder, similar to the one in a revolver that's escaping my google-fu at the moment.
Certainly not something that can be offshored and still come in reliable and affordable.

 

[mmattockx]

Maybe it's just me but it seems like feeding from a box mag is easier to get figured out than a tube mag?

I don't think a tube mag is necessarily worse in the end, but we already have many different box mag designs that have solved the issue for handguns. Getting a tube mag/lifter setup to work would entail making it purpose built for 9mm, which sounds fiddly and expensive.

A bolt action seems like the cheapest option, or maybe a pump? I dunno. I don't really care what kind of action it is, I'll take whatever is cheapest to make.

A bolt action should be cheapest, followed by pump and then lever last. At least that is how they are situated in the market now. Box mags should be the cheapest route for any of the action types simply because they are already sorted and easiest to accommodate.


Mark

 

[calmcat]

9mm lever would be awesome

 

[OkayShooter]

And a revolver carbine would require moon clips to run 9mm, so a 1873 SAA style loading gate revolver wouldn’t work.

Or you’d need a complex detent in the cylinder, similar to the one in a revolver that's escaping my google-fu at the moment.
Certainly not something that can be offshored and still come in reliable and affordable.

Alfa proj 9mm could run without moon clips. You just need to manually eject the spent cases if you didnt use the moon clips. Sometimes they just dumped out, sometimes you needed a wooden dowel. I had one.

Ruger Blackhawk 357 has a 9mm cylinder you can get. Which is a modern SAA. But single actions have a plunger style ejector to push the spent cases out. I shot a few.

Someone has made lever 9mm tube fed rifles, plans are out there. But as corwin said. You wont get them reasonable costs.

i got a 120 year old lever design that runs rimless cartage. Uses a rotory mag.

Comes down to a company that willing to fork out the beans.

 

[OkayShooter]

I don't think a tube mag is necessarily worse in the end, but we already have many different box mag designs that have solved the issue for handguns. Getting a tube mag/lifter setup to work would entail making it purpose built for 9mm, which sounds fiddly and expensive.


A bolt action should be cheapest, followed by pump and then lever last. At least that is how they are situated in the market now. Box mags should be the cheapest route for any of the action types simply because they are already sorted and easiest to accommodate.


Mark

Or even a rotory magazine.

 

[UpperCanadaRebellion]

i got a 120 year old lever design that runs rimless cartage. Uses a rotory mag.

Comes down to a company that willing to fork out the beans.

Yes yes yes, you have a savage 99 in 250 savage of something. Please don’t be coy, it doesnt help anyone.

You are comparing a rifle cartridge to a 9x19 pistol round, that they are both rimless does not make them at all comparable for this conversation.



And the alfa proj revolvers werent saa style, they were swingouts, which was as discussed not an option as the alpha proj carbines are still classed as handguns here. Meaning we only really have the saa carbine option, or entirely new designs.


Its not just being willing to “fork out the beans”, its about having a viable design, and a viable market that will buy it.

 

[wasa]

I have a Spanish Destroyer in 9mm Largo. Works well, feeds fine from the single stacked magazine.

I'd love a rifle just like the Destroyer in 9mm Luger, especially if it feeds from single stack 9mm-1911 mags. Iron sights plus a rail for a red dot or scope. Less than $1000? Take my money!

If a lever or pump 9mm Luger becomes available, and it takes 10- round mags (or more!) I'll probably buy it for PCC matches in the USA.

I'd also like a rifle that shoots 7.62x25 and takes Tokarev magazines for less than $1000.

And while I'm wishing... I wish I was good looking, rich, and all the gun bans since the 1930s were gone!

 

[mcaswell]

The more I think about it, if I'm going for pure functionality I'd want a pump with a box mag. It'd be the ugliest gun in my safe, but if it's fun to shoot (and who doesn't like shooting a pump?) I'm not going to care about looks.

I'm not interested in a 9mm bolt unless except maybe one of those ultra-compact rigs you can put in a backpack. For me, bolt shooting is about accuracy and groupings, and I have hunting rifles and 22s that already fill that role.

 

[mmattockx]

I'd also like a rifle that shoots 7.62x25 and takes Tokarev magazines for less than $1000.

Well, once the 9mm version is done making it work with 7.62x25 would be no issue as long as the mag can handle the longer cartridge. x25 has the same case head diameter and is a better shape for feeding, so it should be a very minimal effort swap.

The more I think about it, if I'm going for pure functionality I'd want a pump with a box mag. It'd be the ugliest gun in my safe, but if it's fun to shoot (and who doesn't like shooting a pump?) I'm not going to care about looks.

Are we talking a pump like the Troy PAR or something more classically styled with a conventional wood stock/forearm?

I'm not interested in a 9mm bolt unless except maybe one of those ultra-compact rigs you can put in a backpack.

All you need is a 10-12" barrel for max performance from 9x19, so you could have a very short bolt action rifle with a minimal fixed stock design.


Mark

 

[mcaswell]

Are we talking a pump like the Troy PAR or something more classically styled with a conventional wood stock/forearm?


All you need is a 10-12" barrel for max performance from 9x19, so you could have a very short bolt action rifle with a minimal fixed stock design.


Mark

I'd prefer a conventional wood design, but when it comes to this kind of rifle I know I'll be in the minority.

The backpack version could be a fun little rifle. A barrel that short wouldn't weigh much, and if everything else was minimized it'd be a light rifle. I can't think of a single practical use (except maybe taking the head off a grouse). If it was cheap enough, I'd still want one.

 

[OkayShooter]

Yes yes yes, you have a savage 99 in 250 savage of something. Please don’t be coy, it doesnt help anyone.

You are comparing a rifle cartridge to a 9x19 pistol round, that they are both rimless does not make them at all comparable for this conversation.



And the alfa proj revolvers werent saa style, they were swingouts, which was as discussed not an option as the alpha proj carbines are still classed as handguns here. Meaning we only really have the saa carbine option, or entirely new designs.


Its not just being willing to “fork out the beans”, its about having a viable design, and a viable market that will buy it.

The designs are out there. Its matter of scaling them down to work with pistols cartridges. Which involves R&D and money. There hasn't been a reasonable priced pistol cal rifle since the OIC bans.

No need to re invent the wheel..

 

[apexanimal]

Itt i learned that somehow you can make thousands of 9mm smgs per day out of pipes in a washing machine factory but making one you have to c0ck after each shot is apparently physically impossible.

 

[mmattockx]

There hasn't been a reasonable priced pistol cal rifle since the OIC bans.

That is the nature of markets. When the government steps in and destroys the supply side of the supply/demand equation it really screws the rest of it up.

No need to re invent the wheel..

I agree. I don't see a point to a rotary mag for a PCC, but it could certainly be done. I'd use existing pistol mag designs for a bolt action and a proprietary mag for a pump action where larger capacity would be desirable.

Itt i learned that somehow you can make thousands of 9mm smgs per day out of pipes in a washing machine factory but making one you have to c0ck after each shot is apparently physically impossible.

You aren't as far off as you think, but no one has said it is impossible to do a manual action in 9mm, just that no company has done the work to develop it properly and make it run well. Yet.

In terms of the SMG's, an open bolt full auto only SMG is about the simplest firearm possible. A bolt action is more difficult in comparison.


Mark

 

[ArmedGinger]

I'd be happy if these weren't so expensive and hard to find



The issue is, anything that gets made in black with tactical rails will just get banned like everything else, look at the R9! They called it a variant of the AR180! Yet the homestead is still around (for now).

 

[XCR User]

...

 

[OkayShooter]

That is the nature of markets. When the government steps in and destroys the supply side of the supply/demand equation it really screws the rest of it up.


I agree. I don't see a point to a rotary mag for a PCC, but it could certainly be done. I'd use existing pistol mag designs for a bolt action and a proprietary mag for a pump action where larger capacity would be desirable.


Mark

For those that want a lever or pump with a more traditional look.

Im surprised Ruger American ranch didnt come in 9mm. As you can get AR mag adapter. But slap in an mag adapter. The upper on AR are the same lengtb between 223 and 9mm. Just be matter of making a new ejectior.

 

[rifleman338]

9mm lever would be awesome

The demise of the liberal government and all those minions who still support them would be awesome.

 

[RVG_Don]

My pathetic attempt at having a 9mm long gun was to get a rifled 8" insert to use in a 12ga break action.

I'm shooting 9 using a 7" insert out of my chiappa m6

 

[mmattockx]

For those that want a lever or pump with a more traditional look.

Fair enough. I would think that is a pretty small market in 9mm, though. I would think most of the more traditionalist guys would just buy a lever action in .38 special/.357 mag and reload for it. Who knows, though? More guns = better, so I'm good with it either way.

Im surprised Ruger American ranch didnt come in 9mm. As you can get AR mag adapter. But slap in an mag adapter. The upper on AR are the same lengtb between 223 and 9mm. Just be matter of making a new ejectior.

That should work well with the Mean Arms 9mm STANAG pattern conversion mags. They make a version with the ejector built in, so that should solve the ejector issue as well. Just need to rebarrel and carry on...


Mark

 

[UpperCanadaRebellion]

You aren't as far off as you think, but no one has said it is impossible to do a manual action in 9mm, just that no company has done the work to develop it properly and make it run well. Yet.

In terms of the SMG's, an open bolt full auto only SMG is about the simplest firearm possible. A bolt action is more difficult in comparison.

Agreed. Particularly for these short OAL pistol rounds, the absolute reliability of blowback operation coupled with a spring to return it to battery is far easier to design for than the unpredictable nature of a manually operated action. See short-stroking and failure to feed issues on pump shotguns and lever actions respectively.

From an engineering standpoint a spring is constant and predictable, a person isnt.



Previously the issues of mag feeding the enfield 9mm builds has been discussed, and compared to the easier to chamber 45 acp. What was missed was the issue wasn't inherently the magazine, but the feedramp and chamber geometry.

9mm was designed specifically for automatic actions, as was its parent case 30 Luger, and its parent case 7.65x25 borchardt.


Rhineland Arms may be the only ones producing anything close to what we need right now. But getting them to invest in this market after the fg9 experience may be wishful thinking.




Seems Alan Rock is slowly getting his wish.