An m14 not a norinco m305

cost of LRB match with m25 reciever and medium barrel $3000

Norc to build to the same

Norc $500
Barrel medium criterion match $329
Flash supressor to match threading on new barrel $40
Castle nut $8
NM front sght $40
Bolt USGI/LRB $225
Op Rod $175
NM oprod guide $39
NM oprod spring $39
Gas system complete with NM piston $165
USGI triger group $250
NM rear sight asbly $250
Boyds stock complete $190
Good sight rail (included on m25 recievers) $225-275

coming in at $2475 pluss assebly costs depending on your skill as an armour/ access to tools.
I forwent the inport costs because either way your paying for it, wether you pay it up front, or pay a local retailer for it (armtac, and BTW you couldn't even come close to this pricing ording from them), and if you don't order it all in one go you pay for it time and time again with the custom norc.

And at the end of the day, your still left with a norc reciever that may or may not be in good spec and no matter what you do to it still feels a bit rough when you #### it, a feeling you never get with a LRB.
Oh and if that $500 gap still seems a bit much.... LRB give a good discount to active military and law enforcement personal, cuts that gap down to nothing.

Roger that. Back when I was an open minded sort and did a bunch of Norc based builds, even to the point of absolutely everything but the bare Norc receiver being TRW, I spent $2000-3000 on a couple builds on Norcs without much trouble and enjoyed mildly but frustratingly out of spec receivers.

I just rounded out an LRB M25 build right now, and I'm at $2681.38 with all TRW parts. I own barrels from Criterion and now Krieger I may settle on it that would push it up a hundred or two after I sell the TRW barrel.

Going with a Norc ($500 landed), ARMS 18 ($230 landed) and replacing the parts I would anyway I'm easily at $800. Plus the finish stinks on the Norcs usually, so repark, now we're close to $900 for the base of the project. For $550 more I'll take an integral scope mount American receiver thanks. :) Plus it'll actually have resale value if you decide you want a new flavour, the hardest guns I've had to try to sell were spruced up Norcs. In the end, it's still Chinese.

As I've become more bearded the importance of supporting the home team in our sport has become glaringly apparent to me. Plus, the kit's better anyhow and they're actually on our side.
 
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Here's my .02 - either go 'cheap' and buy a Norc, or spend the bucks and get, or build, an LRB. In this case the mid (ish) priced Springfield is the worst value. The M14 design is based around a forged receiver, and it doesn't matter if it comes from Quebec or Brazil (both have been sources at various times) castings don't hold spec reliably enough to be useable. Additionally, Springfield has produced some genuine puppies, and the only way to get warranty is to export the rifle to the US and wait for it to come back.
 
Here's my .02 - either go 'cheap' and buy a Norc, or spend the bucks and get, or build, an LRB. In this case the mid (ish) priced Springfield is the worst value. The M14 design is based around a forged receiver, and it doesn't matter if it comes from Quebec or Brazil (both have been sources at various times) castings don't hold spec reliably enough to be useable. Additionally, Springfield has produced some genuine puppies, and the only way to get warranty is to export the rifle to the US and wait for it to come back.

Strongly disagree, and I have to ask these guys of this opinion, how many M1As have you owned and shot, and how many rounds have you put through them? There's a lot to show the M1A receiver may be the toughest M14 receiver made, I have an LRB here and side by side with the M1A the M1A is a heavier receiver. Cast also will perform equally as well as forged when well done and even potentially exceed it if better steel is used, there is nothing wrong with modern castings. The phobia of cast comes from a different era of junk parts and asian pot metal stuff.

Here's one of the best breakdowns I've read on M14/M1A receiver strength and service life:

SlamFire1 on thehighroad said:
One gentleman I shoot with had six barrels on his Springfield Armory M1a, before the receiver cracked just above the magazine release. Assuming a 5000 round barrel life, at 0.50 cents a round, that is about $15,000 worth of ammunition. He duct taped the cracked piece in, and continued shooting. Eventually he sent the rifle to Springfield Armory and they replaced the receiver, for free! :D Excellent service. :D He is still shooting his rifle, has a sticker with the word “Phoenix” on the side of the stock. The finish is worn to the wood where he cheeks the rifle. This year he removed the glue from the rifle stock, and I did not recognize the thing.

The bolt, gas cylinder, trigger guard, flash suppessor, are all original. Last year the operating rod broke in the saddle area and has been replaced.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/EditedriflePhoenixDSCN2278.jpg


As for the military, well they have to sit down and think about how long a rifle will last. I have read information that the lifetime of the FN rifle was considered to be 20 years and 5000 rounds. At the end of 20 years or 5000 rounds it was considered acceptable to send the rifle to depot and have everything worn replaced. And that includes the receiver, if necessary.

There is data on the 03 Springfield, the August 1928 article in Army Ordnance on overhauling th 03 Springfield. Out of a 10,000 rifle lot, 90% of the barrels were replaced, 85% of the receivers, 25% of the bolts. There are a lot of little parts listed, and the high percentage of receivers replaced was due to the Army scrapping “low number” receivers.

All numbers based on the lifetime of an existing M1a receiver, or M14 receivers, are estimates. Someone asked a military Armorer and that person gave an estimate.

I talked to the USMC rifle team Armorers about their M14’s, and they would occasionally have a receiver crack behind the rear sight. The most common location was left rear. The USMC also double lugged their receivers. It is my recollection that in 1996, USMC shooter Julia Watson was on path to be high shooter during NRA week, after being high shooter during service rifle week, when her M14 receiver cracked and ruined her score.

M1/M14 receivers receive an impact blow from the bolt. Basically the rear heel is the recoil buffer. If the receiver material is going to fail, it will be on the rear sidewalls. I have no doubt that the supporting material for the left bolt lug was sized for an indefinate fatique life. The right bolt lug is supported by the length of the op rod track.

GI receivers were optimized to reduce weight. The weight goal for the 30 Cal lightweight was an unrealistic seven pounds. Well the weight had to come from somewhere. The LRB forged receiver follows the Government data spec, as close as can without being full auto. As you can see in this rear lugged LRB photo, the there is significant material removal from the right receiver side, and this follows the GI Contour. Springfield Armory added material to their receivers, as can be seen in the second photograph.

LRB

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...r Pictures/ReducedRailreceiverrightinside.jpg

SA receiver

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...tures/ReducedDSCN6762SAM1areceiverrightsi.jpg


Lou makes a fine receiver, this is not meant as a criticism of his receivers. The people who are buying his receivers want something as close to GI as possible, and he has to provide what the market wants. Springfield Armory made changes, and I think this was a change for the good.


What would have probably added to the service life of the M14 receiver would have been using a higher grade material. The M14 receiver was made from 8620, an easily machined material that just met requirements. This material was a National Emergency steel first used in WWII Garands, and was used because only trace amounts of the rare and strategic materials Chromium, Nickel and Molybdenum were needed to get acceptable properties. Because 8620 was “Mil spec”, and there are vocal fanatics who think “Mil Spec” cannot be improved, commercial receivers use 8620. However the commercial receivers would be stronger and undoubtedly have a longer lifetime if they were made from a better grade of material, such as 4140.

As it is, 8620 receivers will outlast most shooters, but what that life is, I don’t know. I can’t afford to run a lifetime test.

But no matter how long the design life was, the actual life of these rifles was very short. They were made for less than four years, removed from service, and Evil Clinton destroyed hundreds of thousands of new M14's at Anniston Army Depot. I was able to buy salvaged bolts, op rods, trigger mechanisms, from the CMP, that were essentially, factory new.
 
Actually, 50calshooter's build was $1250 with the basic "shoot as good as a Springfield mods, and $1675 with the added perks to upgrade the rifle with the "nice to have" stuff, some of which even the Springfields don't have.

So a cool custom shooter for 1675 that can shoot and feel as good as a springfield, or 3000 for a springfield.

And the Norc receivers have a reputation of being a better starting point for a build, and are desirable even in the US where they are stuck with what they have of them from several years ago before the "good" norcs arrived here.

I'll stick with tinkering with my Norc. YMMV.

Barrel $400 landed
TRW bolt $350+ landed
TRW one piece op rod $240+ landed

He didn't replace anything important, a bit peculiar. You're at $2000 there then with the majors done and it's still just lipstick on a pig, but this is just my opinion. My LRB M25 is a hair over $2600 built, with better parts than that list for 50cal's Norc polish, and for $600 more I'll take an integral scope mount and the ability to resell, for what I have invested, anyday. Plus, we have a sport under pressure, supporting the western manufacturers, where arguments are buoyed by jobs here and manufacturers that will go to bat for us in numerous ways compared to Norinco is priceless. Utterly priceless. I come from farming, and the notion of supporting local and allies was extremely strong, that is dying rapidly.

You buy, you vote. I prefer in my sport to avoid voting communist, no matter how much other Chinese stuff seeps into our lives. I have an easy choice in supporting western firearms products, there's no shortage.

So you buy, you vote. Some of the most powerful voting you can do.
 
your right.

But were I get anoyed is were the penny pinching, dress up a pig crowd starts to preach that there litraly lowliest manufactured, pumped out as fast as posible, consistently out of spec rifle is just as good or better then the premuim, made to order, assembled by well trained, paid to care workers highly inspected, tested and true rifle with the simple addition of a few parts totaling a sum of a a mere couple hundred bucks.

its like comparing a mosberg spx to a beneli m4 and trying to tell me if you spiffed up the mossberg with a couple hundred in after market parts its a better shotgun.
 
My dislike of Springer comes from 2 M1A's that wouldn't take a scope mount and one shipped from the factory with a split (in two) roller - shouldn't have left the factory, the defect was obvious and the answer was warranty service only. For $1600 1992 dollars, they should have done better.
 
your right.

But were I get anoyed is were the penny pinching, dress up a pig crowd starts to preach that there litraly lowliest manufactured, pumped out as fast as posible, consistently out of spec rifle is just as good or better then the premuim, made to order, assembled by well trained, paid to care workers highly inspected, tested and true rifle with the simple addition of a few parts totaling a sum of a a mere couple hundred bucks.

its like comparing a mosberg spx to a beneli m4 and trying to tell me if you spiffed up the mossberg with a couple hundred in after market parts its a better shotgun.

The thing is this, the end result isn't measured by the quality of the finish, but the accuracy, consistency and reliability of the rifle. Norincos have proven themselves to be a versatile rifle after the inherent flaws are addressed. This means that if you were to take two targets from the end of the range, would you be able to tell the difference between the rifles?

I can understand the OP's reasons for not wanting to support Norinco. However, Norinco is probably one of the biggest players in helping prevent the M14 from ever being reclassified, and probably isn't hurting the AR15 either. The more people that buy Norinco, the more overall firearms that are in the hands of Canadians. That in itself is a good enough reason to support Norinco, so they are motivated to sell more firearms to us. Those Communist guns are helping cement Gun-Rights in Canada through quantity alone.
 
maybe not the first target... but after a few probably.... the LRB match that i have fired (And purchased one for myself) have much better consitancy then any norc I have seen, even the tricked out ones. I have yet to see that LRB stove pipe a round and have yet to handle a norc that doesn't stove pipe rounds every so often; enough to make it anoying. That LRB does not require shimming, tweeking, or hammering after every couple hundred rounds either.
You may like to tinker....so do i.... however, I like my guns to work flawlessly without requiremnt to keep adjusting things constantly like its 60 year old carberated engine. When I need it, im not trying to clear a jam, experience a part failure or even have it blow up in my face.
 
It seems very important for some people to justify spending a lot on their rifle, and for others to justify spending very little on theirs. Makes me wonder if they're trying to convince the rest of us, or just themselves. Ah well, whatever floats your boat is all good. Someday maybe I'll run out of other things to spend money on and get an LRB, but for now I'm having tons of fun with my Norcs.

To the OP: One thing to consider, if you buy a used Norc off the EE you're not sending a single dime to the PRC...and if the barrel was going to fly off, it probably would have already ;)
 
ive handled 6 norcs now, 2 of my own the rest friends... all stove pipe at leaste 1 out of 100.

Dude, you have the worst luck with Norcs. You didn't run over an old Chinese gypsy or anything did you?

I've only shot three M305s, and only two of them extensively. Between the first two I've gone through four spam cans and about 600 rounds of mixed Remington and Winchester. The new one's only had 120 rounds through it so far. None have yet failed to feed, fire or eject. I guess I lucked out.
 
I remember when you could buy North American tv's, stereos, and other electronics. The Japanese started dumping into the market. They were advertised as cheaper and better. It seemed to become fashionable to buy Japanese and trash anything made here. Now you can't find anything made here.
In the early '90's, I drove truck for a company that can credit it's initial growth and success to transporting 50-60 tractor trailer loads of plastic tv cabinets per week from RCA in Prescott, On to the RCA assembly plant in Indianapolis, In. Eventually The Indianapolis plant moved to Mexico and our loads were forwarded there by another carrier. A few years later, the Prescott plant closed and now RCA has nothing left in N.A. but customers.
Sure, I buy lots of products made in China. If I didn't, I'd have nearly nothing to buy.

You are aware that Japan is NOT in China, and is a completely different country right? Or was your point that RCA moved production from North America to over seas?
 
Dude, you have the worst luck with Norcs. You didn't run over an old Chinese gypsy or anything did you?

I've only shot three M305s, and only two of them extensively. Between the first two I've gone through four spam cans and about 600 rounds of mixed Remington and Winchester. The new one's only had 120 rounds through it so far. None have yet failed to feed, fire or eject. I guess I lucked out.

I ran over a chinese mystic while he was preforming the demon clensing ritual during the chinese new year, when the moon was full and sagitariuous was in my birth sign. when he got up I ran him over again and yelled "screw your superstisios huey!" then sped away knocking over a small shrine, crushing a coy pond and forcing a group of budisht munks to dive for cover over in the ditch, man am i paying for it now.

I would like to just say "its my bad tinkering skills ####ing it up" but I only tinkered with 2 of those and one of them was set up by a gun smith.
Those norcs just jam a round on ejection for me every so often. Scope or no scope doesn't seem to matter, the spent brass just doesn't fully eject (does a spin in place or pops up vertical) and is crushed as the bolt cylces back on the the brass that didn't eject fully. It realy pissed me off when I was shooting my Norma brass in it. Its not hard to clear just pull the bolt back and shake then continue but yeah... anoying as hell.
 
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I ran over a chinese mystic while he was preforming the demon clensing ritual during the chinese new year, when the moon was full and sagitariuous was in my birth sign. when he got up I ran him over again and yelled "screw your superstisios huey!" then sped away knocking over a small shrine, crushing a coy pond and forcing a group of budisht munks to dive for over in the ditch, man am i paying for it now.

Laugh2
 
You are aware that Japan is NOT in China, and is a completely different country right? Or was your point that RCA moved production from North America to over seas?

You're likely too young, Japan was the first China. All the first Japanese goods were "Chinese level" and they were the first Asian budget goods producer with access to the US economy, they since moved to high end.
 
I must have too. Mine has over 6K through it, and has never stove piped, or had any malfunctions whatsoever.
It's smooth as silk and purrs like a kitten.

I view these with suspicion, you've shot over $5,000 in ammunition through your $400 rifle? The barrels aren't even good for 6,000 rounds. Noted if I ever see it on the EE, warn buyers.

I've owned quite a few Norcs in the past and built on them a lot, and I had more problems with them than any other make of firearm.
 
I ran over a chinese mystic while he was preforming the demon clensing ritual during the chinese new year, when the moon was full and sagitariuous was in my birth sign. when he got up I ran him over again and yelled "screw your superstisios huey!" then sped away knocking over a small shrine, crushing a coy pond and forcing a group of budisht munks to dive for cover over in the ditch, man am i paying for it now.

I would like to just say "its my bad tinkering skills ####ing it up" but I only tinkered with 2 of those and one of them was set up by a gun smith.
Those norcs just jam a round on ejection for me every so often. Scope or no scope doesn't seem to matter, the spent brass just doesn't fully eject (does a spin in place or pops up vertical) and is crushed as the bolt cylces back on the the brass that didn't eject fully. It realy pissed me off when I was shooting my Norma brass in it. Its not hard to clear just pull the bolt back and shake then continue but yeah... anoying as hell.

Your driving skills need improvement. If you got him right first time, none of this would be happening. Laugh2


As per Norinco malfunctions... could it be ammunition that you are using?
 
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