- Location
- Saskatchewan
Anti-Bear gun for 55 year old female guide...
- Thread starter swissrallyman
- Start date
1300_stainless
Regular
- Location
- Nova Scotia, Canada
I agree she needs practice. And get a stock, maybe even something from knoxx that reduces recoil. I have a dual pistol grip shot gun and it looks real cool, but it's next to useless with slugs, and even shot for that matter. Outfit the gun properly and then get her to practice handling and shooting it. Shooting from the hip isnt going to be very accurate..and with no practice..she might as well throw the gun at the bear. It's not just her shes taking care of, it will be the people with her. It would be very irresponsible of her to refuse to practice and become comfortable with a tool she may have to use to protect her life..and the lives of those around her.
skeetgunner
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Burlington
I got quite a chuckle out of that....its just good advice in general!
Seriously, what about a Marlin guide gun and a Marlin lever .22rf to practice with. The light, low recoil .22 lever gun promotes easy practice sessions and good marksmanship, while using the same action as the .45-70, .308 or .444 defense gun.
Turkeyslayer 1300
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Russell, Ontario
Those pistol gripped shotguns are not terribly fun to fire.I would set her up with a Dominion Grizzly(pardon the pun). It is not that much heavier than the pistol gripped gun and will kick much less and be more accurate. You could also set her up with one of Stoeger's Outback o/u's.
That is insane. That's more dangerous than giving her nothing.
Get her a knoxx stock, and swap it out for the pistol grip when she isn't looking if necessary.
AT LEAST get the folder - that's the minimum. The collapsing stock would be better.
Then - SHE MUST get out and practice. Start her with trap loads. Hell - make her shoot skeet and trap with it - at least she'll get used to shooting at something moving. The recoil will be lower and hopefully she'll learn.
Then move her to 'quick fire' practice on milk jugs at 20 yards with slugs. She'll learn how challenging it can be to snap off a quick shot at that range with a slug.
But most important of all - teach her about bears. Make her read shelton and hererro. Learn to know when a bear is nearby and what to look for.
Get her a knoxx stock, and swap it out for the pistol grip when she isn't looking if necessary.
AT LEAST get the folder - that's the minimum. The collapsing stock would be better.
Then - SHE MUST get out and practice. Start her with trap loads. Hell - make her shoot skeet and trap with it - at least she'll get used to shooting at something moving. The recoil will be lower and hopefully she'll learn.
Then move her to 'quick fire' practice on milk jugs at 20 yards with slugs. She'll learn how challenging it can be to snap off a quick shot at that range with a slug.
But most important of all - teach her about bears. Make her read shelton and hererro. Learn to know when a bear is nearby and what to look for.
Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Dear future mom-in-law,
You should definitely follow the advice offered by the experienced shooters here.
Your steadfastness in not wanting to A: Get a proper firearm, and B: Actually become proficient at it, is both irresponsible and assenine.
You are tasked with the protection of human lives, and yes....the situation where you may have to protect your charges is very possible.
Your attitude could very well cost lives, and in that position, you have other lives in your hands.....smarten up.
Be a grownup, and stop thinking about your own selfishness.
Either:
1. Forget this guide thing....having people die under your watch isn't worth it. Make the resposible choice.
2. Get a proper firearm and actually become proficient with it. 5 minutes at the range will tell you that you are in NO way capable of saving someone...get good.
3. Prepare a speech to give the children of the people you were guiding when the Grizz charged explaining how you wish you could have done more to save their parents, but it was really too much hassle to equip yourself (both equipment/practice wise) properly to be able to do anything when it counted.
That is all.
You should definitely follow the advice offered by the experienced shooters here.
Your steadfastness in not wanting to A: Get a proper firearm, and B: Actually become proficient at it, is both irresponsible and assenine.
You are tasked with the protection of human lives, and yes....the situation where you may have to protect your charges is very possible.
Your attitude could very well cost lives, and in that position, you have other lives in your hands.....smarten up.
Be a grownup, and stop thinking about your own selfishness.
Either:
1. Forget this guide thing....having people die under your watch isn't worth it. Make the resposible choice.
2. Get a proper firearm and actually become proficient with it. 5 minutes at the range will tell you that you are in NO way capable of saving someone...get good.
3. Prepare a speech to give the children of the people you were guiding when the Grizz charged explaining how you wish you could have done more to save their parents, but it was really too much hassle to equip yourself (both equipment/practice wise) properly to be able to do anything when it counted.
That is all.
i haven't shot a knoxx stock, but i do have one of badboybeesons ar15/870 adapters on my grizzly with an enedine recoil buffer tube as well, and there is little to no recoil.
i picked up a couple of boxes of 3" magnum slugs and tried them before i put the enedine tube on, and all i could shoot was 4 before i didn't want to shoot anymore.
with the enedine tube, i finished the remaining 11 rounds, even shooting off 4 of them as fast as i could pump the action and pull the trigger, with out any soreness of the shoulder
i picked up a couple of boxes of 3" magnum slugs and tried them before i put the enedine tube on, and all i could shoot was 4 before i didn't want to shoot anymore.
with the enedine tube, i finished the remaining 11 rounds, even shooting off 4 of them as fast as i could pump the action and pull the trigger, with out any soreness of the shoulder
I too like the mother-in-law statement by Effing' !! LOL Hee hee
What kind of outfitting company is it? Fishing? Hunting? Birdwatching? Could it be that she won't be the only employee of the outfitter that will be with the groups they take out? It don't sound like she's an actually hunting guide if she has no firearms experience. If she's the "cook-ee" or other support staff, maybe the boss figures that she won't have to be a first responder. Or maybe he hasn't told her that they'll be giving her some gun handling training in the field or before they head out...
OF COURSE I AGREE WITH THE TECHNICAL AND LACK OF EXPERIENCE POSTS. They are dead on. Just seems like as usual everyone is flying off the handle without all the information again. LOL (That never happens here here!! LOL)
AND, if I'm completely out to lunch and ya need a set of 870 furniture, I got a wood set off an 870 Police taking up space in my gunroom. I'll contribute to your training cause for the cost of shipping....
Finally my opinion on mode of protection. After personally thumping a few blackies with both an 870 with slugs, and Marlin GG 45-70, 30-06, .338WM, and .300WM, and seeing what her choices are, I'd go with the 45-70 or something in that range like the .450, .444 etc. Seein' that she isn't gonna be doing a lot of shooting, ammo price really isn't an issue...Plus, you'll get a kickass handmedown in a couple of years after she retires! Or sooner, if she gets eaten by a bear....KIDDING LOL
Navo
What kind of outfitting company is it? Fishing? Hunting? Birdwatching? Could it be that she won't be the only employee of the outfitter that will be with the groups they take out? It don't sound like she's an actually hunting guide if she has no firearms experience. If she's the "cook-ee" or other support staff, maybe the boss figures that she won't have to be a first responder. Or maybe he hasn't told her that they'll be giving her some gun handling training in the field or before they head out...
OF COURSE I AGREE WITH THE TECHNICAL AND LACK OF EXPERIENCE POSTS. They are dead on. Just seems like as usual everyone is flying off the handle without all the information again. LOL (That never happens here here!! LOL)
AND, if I'm completely out to lunch and ya need a set of 870 furniture, I got a wood set off an 870 Police taking up space in my gunroom. I'll contribute to your training cause for the cost of shipping....
Finally my opinion on mode of protection. After personally thumping a few blackies with both an 870 with slugs, and Marlin GG 45-70, 30-06, .338WM, and .300WM, and seeing what her choices are, I'd go with the 45-70 or something in that range like the .450, .444 etc. Seein' that she isn't gonna be doing a lot of shooting, ammo price really isn't an issue...Plus, you'll get a kickass handmedown in a couple of years after she retires! Or sooner, if she gets eaten by a bear....KIDDING LOL
Navo
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Being somewhat familiar with guides, bears, hunting, etc., I consider this the stupidest thing I have ever heard of.
It isn't a rogue bear that might endanger the clients, it's her! Can you imagine being anywhere near her if she tried to shoot a bear?
I can not possibly fathom an outfitter allowing this. If he has to have her for a guide, tell her to leave the damn gun at home.
A guides clients are always referred to as dudes, but they all can shoot, they all have large rifles and are just as capable, or maybe more so, of protecting themselves against a bear attack as the average resident hunter that takes to the bush.
For many years the BC game laws forbid a guide, or his outfitter, from even having a gun while they were guiding. This was in response to the often heard complaints from guided hunters that the guide had shot the animal. In fact, I don't know when the law was changed, allowing guides to carry a gun while they guided. Maybe someone can tell us when the law was changed.
It isn't a rogue bear that might endanger the clients, it's her! Can you imagine being anywhere near her if she tried to shoot a bear?
I can not possibly fathom an outfitter allowing this. If he has to have her for a guide, tell her to leave the damn gun at home.
A guides clients are always referred to as dudes, but they all can shoot, they all have large rifles and are just as capable, or maybe more so, of protecting themselves against a bear attack as the average resident hunter that takes to the bush.
For many years the BC game laws forbid a guide, or his outfitter, from even having a gun while they were guiding. This was in response to the often heard complaints from guided hunters that the guide had shot the animal. In fact, I don't know when the law was changed, allowing guides to carry a gun while they guided. Maybe someone can tell us when the law was changed.
wow, talk about stuck in her ways and being far too stubborn for her own good.
i'd say a marlin 1895 45-70. Doesn't kick a whole lot, accurate for ranges she'll need, and packs a helluva punch.
3" Slugs? thats just dumb. I've been shooting shotgun since I was 8. 3" slugs still hurt- i'm shooting rem 870 with 18" barrel- and the recoil is killer, i get off maybe 6 then i'm done (at 270lbs, i have a lil more mass to take it than she does)........
if she wants a 12 gauge, get the 870 express magnum, see what you can do about recoil reducing stocks.... but if its in a scabbard, it'll be way easier to pull out than the stupid pistol grip configuration.
my .02
i'd say a marlin 1895 45-70. Doesn't kick a whole lot, accurate for ranges she'll need, and packs a helluva punch.
3" Slugs? thats just dumb. I've been shooting shotgun since I was 8. 3" slugs still hurt- i'm shooting rem 870 with 18" barrel- and the recoil is killer, i get off maybe 6 then i'm done (at 270lbs, i have a lil more mass to take it than she does)........
if she wants a 12 gauge, get the 870 express magnum, see what you can do about recoil reducing stocks.... but if its in a scabbard, it'll be way easier to pull out than the stupid pistol grip configuration.
my .02
12 Gauge standard 2 and three quarter inch brenneke slugs. Buckshot is not reliable and does not penetrate well on big grizzlies. The gun is to handle the definition of extreme shtf.
Synthetic standard shoulder stock, to fit her. Most women need a shorter length and different pitch to fit their shoulder shape and arm length. It must point where you look, especially if you are not too experienced.Bead sights are fine, with practice. Standard forend. Maybe an extended tube, but watch the balance-don't want it too heavy. You want minimum five ####s( oops I meant shots, but they often happen simultaneously in a grizzly encounter, not that you notice til later)
Practice and familiarity with the gun is crucial. Start with a 22 til she can hit, then several hundred birdshot through the shotgun until she has fun and knows the gun.Totally irresponsible, and inneffective otherwise. If she thinks she won't need a defensive system, and isn't prepared she should not be guiding, armed or not.Negligence is easy to show after something has gone sideways. How many of you would be comfortable OR FEEL SAFE around her while she is carrying her shotgun? Short ones are easy to point inadvertently, even if you are experienced.
You must know bears and bear behaviour, and unless you understand that thoroughly and can judge when shooting is an appropriate option, forget it.Too many dead bears, not enough safe people, too much ignorant attitude. A gun is the last thing, although an important back up to brains and smart behaviour.
If she is mostly on horseback that reduces risk.She has no advantage at all with a pistol grip, and does not need the reduced length and weight on a horse. Read Herrero and Gary Shelton.For someone like this, pepper spray will be more appropriate for safety and effectiveness. I hope her horse is smarter than she is. Most women with training are better at the right attitude than men, who tend to get too macho, as if it were a substitute for astute behaviour, and train faster because they don't have to lose all that attitude first. There might be hope.
I know this stuff because I teach it. Different perspective.
Synthetic standard shoulder stock, to fit her. Most women need a shorter length and different pitch to fit their shoulder shape and arm length. It must point where you look, especially if you are not too experienced.Bead sights are fine, with practice. Standard forend. Maybe an extended tube, but watch the balance-don't want it too heavy. You want minimum five ####s( oops I meant shots, but they often happen simultaneously in a grizzly encounter, not that you notice til later
)Practice and familiarity with the gun is crucial. Start with a 22 til she can hit, then several hundred birdshot through the shotgun until she has fun and knows the gun.Totally irresponsible, and inneffective otherwise. If she thinks she won't need a defensive system, and isn't prepared she should not be guiding, armed or not.Negligence is easy to show after something has gone sideways. How many of you would be comfortable OR FEEL SAFE around her while she is carrying her shotgun? Short ones are easy to point inadvertently, even if you are experienced.
You must know bears and bear behaviour, and unless you understand that thoroughly and can judge when shooting is an appropriate option, forget it.Too many dead bears, not enough safe people, too much ignorant attitude. A gun is the last thing, although an important back up to brains and smart behaviour.
If she is mostly on horseback that reduces risk.She has no advantage at all with a pistol grip, and does not need the reduced length and weight on a horse. Read Herrero and Gary Shelton.For someone like this, pepper spray will be more appropriate for safety and effectiveness. I hope her horse is smarter than she is. Most women with training are better at the right attitude than men, who tend to get too macho, as if it were a substitute for astute behaviour, and train faster because they don't have to lose all that attitude first. There might be hope.
I know this stuff because I teach it. Different perspective.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
That might be a little harsh. After all she was given the advise by her new boss who she probably assumed knew what he was talking about. A trip to the gunstore and the clerk probably assumed from her question that the pistol grip was what she wanted, made no difference to him. Lots of assuming going on and a bad choice was the result.
She might be able to take pack trips out for 10 years and never have a problem, or they might get jumped on her first trip. That's what concerns me. She needs to get a crash course in bear defense from someone who understands the problem. If Gary Shelton is in the same area, a call to him couldn't hurt. Pounder called Gary with some questions last year and found him very helpful.
Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
If she's serious about becoming proficient, there is time between now and the fall to do so, provided she gets a more suitable firearm, and practices daily with some realistic shooting scenarios.
If that regimen isn't feasible, she shouldn't be arming herself at all, let alone for the protection of others.
If that regimen isn't feasible, she shouldn't be arming herself at all, let alone for the protection of others.
I'd give her a full stock shotgun, use 2 3/4" slugs (Brennekes if you can find them) and a can or 2 of bear spray.
Buckshot isn't a good choice.
Bear spray CAN and WILL lead to a horse wreck if it's deployed into the face of a pack horse.
Buckshot isn't a good choice.
Bear spray CAN and WILL lead to a horse wreck if it's deployed into the face of a pack horse.
Darn.... couldn't we fix her up with a chopped (18.5" barrel) Norinco-Plinko M14? 5/10 rd magazine full of 180 gr PSP or PowerPoints ? 
Do they need a guide ? I can learn to ride horses... I saw "Rawhide" once
Do they need a guide ? I can learn to ride horses... I saw "Rawhide" once
My thoughts exactly, sounds like a nightmare scenario all around. neglegent of the guide company to put an unprepared guide out there. Neglegent of her to refuse to get familiar with the tool to protect herself and her group
My guess on this is, the Mother is a good cook and good with horses. I believe a guide does all/most of the butchering for the client, can she do that and cape a trophy head. If she is camp cook the perceived danger is MAYBE less, but anyone who has a gun for protection of someone else and refuses to practice is really not very responsible. Aren't bears attracted to cooking and camps with meat hanging in trees? There is also the part about not having a tag to kill a grizzly and if she actually wounded or killed a grizzly but it was just doing a bluffing charge or too far away to be called a threat. Now the Guide outfit has to prove that it was a justified shoot by a well trained guide to protect its clients . I can see this Guiding Outfit existing a very short time before a very big problem and/or law suit( wildlife branch fine). How much alike is the daughters personality to the mothers?
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Yeah, I know, but she said that without realizing what she could be faced with. If she gets good information from us, and still has the same point of view, well at least we tried.
