Antique status letter for pistol
- Thread starter polskiogorki
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Because there's some very bad advice on antique firearms, I would strongly encourage everyone owning/considering owning an antique to do their own due diligence is ascertaining the legalities of this class of firearm. For those interested in a road map to the applicable laws, it is as follows:
Section 84 (1) of the Criminal Code differentiates an antique firearm from restricted/non-restricted/prohibited firearms, defining them as:
(a) any firearm manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition and that has not been redesigned to discharge such ammunition, or
(b) any firearm that is prescribed to be an antique firearm;
The reference to prescribed, refers SPECIFICALLY to the Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms. In regard to handguns, it prescribes them to be:
6 A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.
7 A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.
Section 84 (3) of the Criminal Code further states that for the purposes of certain sections of the Criminal Code, antique firearms are not considered to be firearms:
(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:
(a) any antique firearm;
Specifically, this section of the Criminal Code exempts antique FIREARMS from licence/registration requirements (S.91 to 95) , transfer requirements (S.99 to 101), importing/exporting and destruction/loss reporting regulations (S.103 to 107), and firearm prohibition order violations (S. 117.03).
NOTE, it is still considered a firearm under the Criminal Code for all other legal regulations, like using one in the commission of an offense, careless use, and carrying concealed.
Further regulating antique firearms is the Firearms Act Storage, Display, Transportation, and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulation. Section 2(5) of this regulation exempts antique firearms from storage, display and transport requirements of non-restricted/restricted/prohibited firearms (Sections 5-13), but lays out specific regulation for antique firearms (Section 14), which states:
14 (1) An individual may store, display or transport an antique firearm only if it is unloaded.
(2) An individual may transport an antique firearm in an unattended vehicle only if
(a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and
(b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the antique firearm, is securely locked.
(3) An individual may transport an antique firearm that is a handgun only if it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation.
Hope this helps clarify some issues.
For further reading in regard to antique letters, please see my former post here:
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...ique-colts?p=14876985&viewfull=1#post14876985
Section 84 (1) of the Criminal Code differentiates an antique firearm from restricted/non-restricted/prohibited firearms, defining them as:
(a) any firearm manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition and that has not been redesigned to discharge such ammunition, or
(b) any firearm that is prescribed to be an antique firearm;
The reference to prescribed, refers SPECIFICALLY to the Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms. In regard to handguns, it prescribes them to be:
6 A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.
7 A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.
Section 84 (3) of the Criminal Code further states that for the purposes of certain sections of the Criminal Code, antique firearms are not considered to be firearms:
(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms:
(a) any antique firearm;
Specifically, this section of the Criminal Code exempts antique FIREARMS from licence/registration requirements (S.91 to 95) , transfer requirements (S.99 to 101), importing/exporting and destruction/loss reporting regulations (S.103 to 107), and firearm prohibition order violations (S. 117.03).
NOTE, it is still considered a firearm under the Criminal Code for all other legal regulations, like using one in the commission of an offense, careless use, and carrying concealed.
Further regulating antique firearms is the Firearms Act Storage, Display, Transportation, and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulation. Section 2(5) of this regulation exempts antique firearms from storage, display and transport requirements of non-restricted/restricted/prohibited firearms (Sections 5-13), but lays out specific regulation for antique firearms (Section 14), which states:
14 (1) An individual may store, display or transport an antique firearm only if it is unloaded.
(2) An individual may transport an antique firearm in an unattended vehicle only if
(a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and
(b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the antique firearm, is securely locked.
(3) An individual may transport an antique firearm that is a handgun only if it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation.
Hope this helps clarify some issues.
For further reading in regard to antique letters, please see my former post here:
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...ique-colts?p=14876985&viewfull=1#post14876985
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14.3 is notquite the same. There is no need to secure the Antique with a gun lock to make it inoperable. It must however be in a locked container while being transported.
Take Care
Bob
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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You should note that nowhere in law does it specify that antique and restricted are mutually exclusive classifications. The definition of Restricted Firearm in 84(1) does not exclude antiques. The exemption for antiques listed in 84(3) does not exempt antiques from the 84(1) definition of restricted firearms.
An antique handgun that meets the definition of restricted (ie a handgun with barrel longer than 105mm) is BOTH restricted AND antique.
Per S 84(3) antiques are still subject to S86(2) and therefore subject to ALL of the regulations for storage display and transportation of firearms. Being both a restricted AND an antique, antique handguns with barrels longer than 105mm are simultaneously subject to the regulations for storage, display transportation etc for both Restricted AND Antique. This renders the minor difference in transport requirements for restricted handguns and antique handguns utterly meaningless. If this issue were ever to go to court a judge would have no choice but to deem the regulations for antiques as being only applicable to NR antiques, but given NR antiques suffer same vulnerability as Restricted, the judge would be just as likely to strike the whole antique regulations section down.
Fortunately, after 21 years under the current legislative regime, there is no known example where an antique owner was ever convicted at trial for violating the storage regulations, so we should all be able to breath easy that this whole question is mostly an academic exercise without any likelihood of mattering in the real world.
Actually, I would argue that the Commissioner of Firearms, responsible for administering the Firearms Act under S 81.2, has legally clarified which firearms are antique and which are prohibited, and no identical pistol falls into both categories.
The Commissioner of Firearms, who is the Commissioner of the RCMP, who are responsible for the administration of the Canadian Firearms Program, who created a FRT (Firearms Reference Table) system which "establishes a systematic, standard method of identifying, describing and classifying firearms" and is used for "Firearms Identification, for questionable firearms" has clearly defined which firearms are antique and which are prohibited.
They'll even issue you a antique letter if your short barrelled pre-1898 qualifies. You know, so you don't end up in jail.
The Commissioner of Firearms, who is the Commissioner of the RCMP, who are responsible for the administration of the Canadian Firearms Program, who created a FRT (Firearms Reference Table) system which "establishes a systematic, standard method of identifying, describing and classifying firearms" and is used for "Firearms Identification, for questionable firearms" has clearly defined which firearms are antique and which are prohibited.
They'll even issue you a antique letter if your short barrelled pre-1898 qualifies. You know, so you don't end up in jail.
A couple more definitions stating similar from the Q&A section.
Q4. What is considered to be a firearm for purposes of the Firearms Act and for offences related to the Firearms Act in the Criminal Code?
A4. As set out in section 2 of the Criminal Code, "firearm" means:
a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes
any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon, as well as
anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm.
Following are some weapons and devices that meet the definition of a firearm but that are deemed not to be firearms for purposes of the Firearms Act and related offences in the Criminal Code. Some of these items are exempted from the definition only if they were designed exclusively for a specific purpose and are intended to be used exclusively for that purpose by the person who possesses it. However, all of the items listed below are considered to be firearms if used in a criminal or negligent manner.
Antique firearms;
Devices designed exclusively for signalling, for notifying of distress, for firing blank cartridges or for firing stud cartridges, explosive-driven rivets or other industrial projectiles;
Shooting devices designed exclusively for slaughtering domestic animals, tranquilizing animals, or discharging projectiles with lines attached to them;
Air guns and other barreled weapons designed to have:
A muzzle velocity of 152.4 meters per second or less and/or
A muzzle energy of 5.7 joules or less.
Q4. What is considered to be a firearm for purposes of the Firearms Act and for offences related to the Firearms Act in the Criminal Code?
A4. As set out in section 2 of the Criminal Code, "firearm" means:
a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes
any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon, as well as
anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm.
Following are some weapons and devices that meet the definition of a firearm but that are deemed not to be firearms for purposes of the Firearms Act and related offences in the Criminal Code. Some of these items are exempted from the definition only if they were designed exclusively for a specific purpose and are intended to be used exclusively for that purpose by the person who possesses it. However, all of the items listed below are considered to be firearms if used in a criminal or negligent manner.
Antique firearms;
Devices designed exclusively for signalling, for notifying of distress, for firing blank cartridges or for firing stud cartridges, explosive-driven rivets or other industrial projectiles;
Shooting devices designed exclusively for slaughtering domestic animals, tranquilizing animals, or discharging projectiles with lines attached to them;
Air guns and other barreled weapons designed to have:
A muzzle velocity of 152.4 meters per second or less and/or
A muzzle energy of 5.7 joules or less.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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Why don't you go ahead and show us where the commissioner of firearms has public posted 'legal clarification'. Since this is Canada, and not a banana republic, I am sure there are many legal scholars and supreme court justices that will be interested to see a Law Enforcement officer issuing legal clarifications which is task that is enshrined in the constitution as being the exclusive privilege of the judiciary.
I have found no reference to an Antique Restricted or an Antique Prohibitive for that matter. Once a firearm is designated an Antique - the definition of same is elsewhere on this thread - it is an Antique and for the purposes of the Firearms Act it is not a firearm and other than a reference to storage and transportation, the Firearms Act does not apply. It becomes a firearm under the Criminal Code if the gun is involved in a crime - the quotation is elsewhere on this thread. I think you have gone to far with your assumptions.
My Antique letter from the RCMP does not speak to an Antique Restricted Firearm. It simply is an Antique. When I spoke with the RCMP representative in Ottawa she made it quite clear to me my Antique handgun could be shot anywhere it was legal to shoot a non restricted forearm. I made a point of asking for this clarification. Simply put the gun is not both an Antique and a Restricted Firearm it is simply an Antique. You will have to come up with something more. I think your logic is flawed and not based upon the Law or correlates with any of the communications I experienced with the RCMP as I walked through the process to get my gun declared an Antique. I should add the RCMP representative in Ottawa was quite helpful throughout the process and clearly knew what she was talking about.
Take Care
Bob
Same here, the ones I dealt with really knew their stuff and were quite helpful in the process!
It’s still a firearm, of a distinct class. It’s an “antique firearm” and is still regulated by both the Firearms Act and the Criminal Code. It is just a far less restrictive class than restricted, non restricted and prohib firearms, because they are old, rare, obsolete in technology, very difficult to find ammunition for, and clearly and honestly an extremely low risk to public safety.
x3 on Bob & Canucks posts..
The personell in the cfc antique division are actually excellent people, and just like these guys mentioned they're very adament that the Antiques are just that, Antique. It's a class in itself and really does have about the fairest & most straight-forward set of regulations there are... for handling, use, possession n all
I fail to understand why some people struggle to grasp it. Spelled out and handed on a silver platter don't even get it through to some.. whatta ya do-- too bad they can't just grab that sliver of freedom for what it's worth... like the rest of us.. and instead of beak-off & #####, go enjoy it a bit!
The personell in the cfc antique division are actually excellent people, and just like these guys mentioned they're very adament that the Antiques are just that, Antique. It's a class in itself and really does have about the fairest & most straight-forward set of regulations there are... for handling, use, possession n all
I fail to understand why some people struggle to grasp it. Spelled out and handed on a silver platter don't even get it through to some.. whatta ya do-- too bad they can't just grab that sliver of freedom for what it's worth... like the rest of us.. and instead of beak-off & #####, go enjoy it a bit!
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Ground Zero
Its not that people fail to grasp it. Its that government drones dont make the law. They can be as adament as they want it doesnt make them right.
These are the same drones that think 80% finished receivers are prohibited firearms. But its not about them. Its about the law. Their interpretation is just their personal opinion and maybe CGP policy, neither of which will be offered in your defense at trial if it ever came to that.
People choose the advice they want to hear, so its not hard at all for me to grasp why you would prefer the advice of government drones rather than the actual law.
I see what you are saying, but, where it pertains to antiques, just because that is where I have had most contact with the "drones" they are the ones that must interpret the laws as they are written and they have been trained. Practically, if it came to a legal battle in court, their personal ID is on the frt stating that your gun is an antique and is blah blah blah, the I D or in some circumstances their testimony would indeed be considered expert, I am comfortable with that. A professional government expert on my side in front of a judge,, yep, I will take that all day long. If someone proves them wrong, then it would be on them as much as me, share the burden.
Wrong! The Firearm Act foes not apply to an Antique. An Antique revolver or pistol becomes a forearm under the Criminal Code ONLY if it is used in a crime. Because it is not a firearm The Firearms Act does not apply. So says the RCMP Antique group in Ottawa and I assume they know what they are talking about. You can keep going on about it in your own reality if you choose to but once Antiqued it is NOT a firearm. It isn't a class of firearm, nope, nada never. FYI, I can carry it openly and shoot it any where it is legal to discharge a firearm. It is not registered. You in short could not be more wrong.
Please re-read Post #69 above. The definition is there for you to read and see.
I am done here. For those of us with Antiques: we know the rules and have the advice from The RCMP and hold a letter confirming the Antique status. For those who want to go on about some mythical interpretation of the Laws ...fill your boots. For those with a gun that qualifies for Antique Status contact the RCMP if the gun is still registered as either Restricted or Prohibitive. Those in charge of the Antique section will be very helpful in guiding you through the process and will tell you certain what you will be able to do with your gun.
Take Care
Bob
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Oh you think that the government expert will be permitted to testify on your behalf, and against a provincial crown attorney, at your trial. That's adorable.
