Are you, or your friends quitting the Ontario moose hunt due to no tags?

The numbers keep going down. I am in 41 and the numbers around my camp are stable right now but impossible to get a tag. Opening weekend sitting on the porch at camp I can hear 5-8 groups shoot. I know there are not that many tags in the area. Until MNR has teeth to deal with all forms of poaching nothing will get better.

On a bright note I got a doe tag so going to try for a deer.
 
Moose population management comes at a cost.
One cost is frustrated sportsmen .
They could sell a tag to everyone, but in 2 years Moose will be gone the way of the dinosaurs.
I only read the first page, but one thing I did not see mentioned was poaching. I know for a fact that several areas have been hunted out, prior to opening day, by a particular group who (for the sake of decorum) will not be mentioned. Personal friends of mine, frustrated by a lack of game, were offered moose, all gutted and hung, for a modest financial consideration.
 
Gun shots don't equate to poaching. Guys could just be sighting in, having fun, taking a pot shot at a grouse, etc. I think your making an awful assumption that a gun shot is a poaching shot at a moose. I shoot far more at deer camp at things other than deer over the years.
 
Imagine how quickly the moose would be extirpated if it was a free for all.
It is a free for all for a large portion of the population..... the elephant in the room. There is no way to effectively manage moose populations in most provinces when one of the largest user groups has no season or bag limit to adhere to.
 
New modification to the system they are proposing will help to some degree in forcing guys into resetting points. High demand units are a thing in most jurisdictions but a 20 year wait for a unit is pretty crazy. Driving north is obviously the option and it doesn’t take much driving to get kinda north but even those units are still 7-10 points typically. System is self regulating mostly though and just some more patience for point totals to come down will hopefully help
 
The current system here in Ont is a joke, basically an effective way to eliminate hunters as a whole and making it a rich mans sport.

In ‘23 it cost one of our members of a camp of eight, all twenty three pts to secure a Bull Tag that totaled 16 (by MNR results) to draw successfully?

Where did the remaining seven go and why did it cost them (or any other hunter for that matter) all 23pts?! (Or any other combination for that matter). Apparently the MNR has forgotten how to math in the last four yrs of this system..

This retention of points was “supposed to be re-evaluated” after yr two we heard. Yet all we’ve heard is crickets on that front thus far and for the foreseeable future..

If you are an ageing hunter (60-80’ish) you’ll never see another tag in this province again in some WMU’s.

Sad given that some groups have Camps/Property and a large part of $$ and tradition invested into a certain area and cant just up and pack or move around as others have suggested.

The other question that needs to be asked is, how is this new system enticing, retaining newer or younger hunters by some of the outlandish Pts required to draw any tag? Someone is going to buy a license, 99z it and just wait up to a decade+ to go Moose Hunting? Seems a bit of a waste of money on the hunters part for a what if huh? ….

Ya.. I’m not a fan of this new system to say the least…
 
The current system here in Ont is a joke, basically an effective way to eliminate hunters as a whole and making it a rich mans sport.

In ‘23 it cost one of our members of a camp of eight, all twenty three pts to secure a Bull Tag that totaled 16 (by MNR results) to draw successfully?

Where did the remaining seven go and why did it cost them (or any other hunter for that matter) all 23pts?! (Or any other combination for that matter). Apparently the MNR has forgotten how to math in the last four yrs of this system..

This retention of points was “supposed to be re-evaluated” after yr two we heard. Yet all we’ve heard is crickets on that front thus far and for the foreseeable future..

If you are an ageing hunter (60-80’ish) you’ll never see another tag in this province again in some WMU’s.

Sad given that some groups have Camps/Property and a large part of $$ and tradition invested into a certain area and cant just up and pack or move around as others have suggested.

The other question that needs to be asked is, how is this new system enticing, retaining newer or younger hunters by some of the outlandish Pts required to draw any tag? Someone is going to buy a license, 99z it and just wait up to a decade+ to go Moose Hunting? Seems a bit of a waste of money on the hunters part for a what if huh? ….

Ya.. I’m not a fan of this new system to say the least…
So what’s a logical alternative
 
The current system here in Ont is a joke, basically an effective way to eliminate hunters as a whole and making it a rich mans sport.

In ‘23 it cost one of our members of a camp of eight, all twenty three pts to secure a Bull Tag that totaled 16 (by MNR results) to draw successfully?

Where did the remaining seven go and why did it cost them (or any other hunter for that matter) all 23pts?! (Or any other combination for that matter). Apparently the MNR has forgotten how to math in the last four yrs of this system..

This retention of points was “supposed to be re-evaluated” after yr two we heard. Yet all we’ve heard is crickets on that front thus far and for the foreseeable future..

If you are an ageing hunter (60-80’ish) you’ll never see another tag in this province again in some WMU’s.

Sad given that some groups have Camps/Property and a large part of $$ and tradition invested into a certain area and cant just up and pack or move around as others have suggested.

The other question that needs to be asked is, how is this new system enticing, retaining newer or younger hunters by some of the outlandish Pts required to draw any tag? Someone is going to buy a license, 99z it and just wait up to a decade+ to go Moose Hunting? Seems a bit of a waste of money on the hunters part for a what if huh? ….

Ya.. I’m not a fan of this new system to say the least…

No offence, but this attitude is what got the moose population to where it is now in the first place. For someone who feels entitled to moose, the newish system makes no sense. For those who look at management in the long term and put moose before selfish humans, the new system makes perfect sense.

It’s all about taking pressure off populations that need time to recover before hopefully sustaining higher populations so we don’t have to wait so long to get drawn.
 
No offence, but this attitude is what got the moose population to where it is now in the first place. For someone who feels entitled to moose, the newish system makes no sense. For those who look at management in the long term and put moose before selfish humans, the new system makes perfect sense.

It’s all about taking pressure off populations that need time to recover before hopefully sustaining higher populations so we don’t have to wait so long to get drawn.

None taken, I’m the hunter that feels a notched tag is a bonus, not a given every season.

By the same token, there are merits to the points I’ve raised. The MNR should've instilled from the get-go that if it costs a successful hunter X amount of pts to draw a tag, then use X amount only.

Don’t belittle the hunting base by claiming whatever amount the successful applicant had banked up completely. If you were to look at it critically, it’s almost like they are taxing Ont Hunters the extra pts beyond whats required, for their (MNRs) lack of animal management for decades.

Where I hunt we saw a significant reduction in hunters afield this past week. Through conversations with other groups this past week, those other camps/groups felt it was moot point to make the annual trek without a tag, ‘cause what’s the point? Were others showing up the second week? Only one of a known 1/2doz or more camps/groups. Maybe this is part of the fallout for the MNR taking all of the Hunters pts regardless of whats actually required to draw a tag as I mentioned previously. Who knows..

The question I have for yourself (and others) is…

How long into the system is enough? 5, 10, 20yrs?

Are you willing to take that chance and keep applying/accumulating pts up to that length of time, only to have the MNR state the population is not rebounding as predicted/planned (which is a possibility) or it will now take more pts then planned because of that possibility and then costing you everything that you waited on and bought into the hype on for just one hunt, knowing it could take you another 5-10yrs to even be successful at a Calf Tag, let alone a Cow or Bull that could be more pts on top of the Calf requirement because of said lack of population increase? Not all Ont Moose Hunters have that kind of time on their side and that’s how a lot of hunters are currently looking at it.

And let’s not get into the new proposed changes about the second chance, first choice drawing and refusing or declining that successful tag potentially and losing all of your pts..

IMO its a big risk on both the MNRs side and ours as Hunters. We all want to be afield every season with some sort of tag avail that’s not going to take 5-10yrs or more to procure again. Why? Hunting is actually revenue generating and part of Herd management/Conservation… funny that eh?

What the MNR says, actually does and may or may not happen only time will tell, as none of us can predict the future. Yet here we are 4yrs in and still no official word from the MNR on their initial proposed and touted “Hunter Survey/Feedback Form” that was promised when the system changed. Just their annual draw results from the previous yr in the yearly regs.

When I called Pboro last year and asked about this and the troubling use of all my pts for a Tag that requires far less, I got “we’ve heard this concern from a lot of moose hunters and are still acquiring data and looking into it” In other words… “We have no intention of changing that currently or in the near future”…

OMMV (our mileage may vary) on this. We are kind of stuck in a wait n see mode regardless of whether we are for or against the current system…



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As a hunter and lover of nature, I have to support a management system for moose. On the other hand, as a driver I wouldn't mind seeing them all gone. On the third hand, as someone who might need the rural services of someone like a mechanic, I have to like a tag system so that those guys don't all totally disappear during moose season. I guess the tags win.
 
Lived in N.E. Ontario my whole life up until about 6 months ago. I pulled a bull tag on my first choice on the second chance draw 2 years ago with 10 points in WMU 27. It wasn't 100% what I wanted because I wanted to hunt in 26. But it took at least 16 points to pull a bull tag in 26 that year. My father wasn't well (and has since shuffled off this mortal coil) but I wanted one last good hunt with him. So I took the tag and a group of us went out for a week. Didn't end up filling it but it didn't matter. At least we got to have one last hunt together.

Now that he's gone, I don't really have much family anymore. At least really close family.

So, with little in the way of familial ties, no woman, no kids and a desire to hunt big game every year, with vastly more species available to me and have adventures I could have never even dreamed of back home, I pulled up stakes and moved to the other side of the country. It's not an option for some, or even most, of the people who are reading this post. But for the few who this option is available to, you'd be foolish not to seriously consider it. It took me a long time to pull the trigger and do it. Over a decade of dreaming. But if you're serious about big game hunting, BC is where it's at in this country. The hunting opportunities afforded to a resident here make a hunter wonder why he stayed so long in Ontario. It's a night and day difference.
 
The only people I know not in favour of the new tag system are ones who are part of large established groups who had perfected the art of the using mass numbers to reliably pull tags in the old system. I get that large groups who have invested money in camps, etc. and have become accustomed to drawing tags in these areas are going to be upset - but the old system was fundamentally flawed on many levels. For one, it hugely disadvantaged hunters who didn't hunt in these large (ten plus hunter) groups.

In addition, over the counter calf tags were always a poor idea. With adult tags hard to draw in many high demand areas, many groups turned to focusing on calf hunting and became pretty proficient. This obviously doesn't do much for moose population growth.

I would like to see a small percentage of tags held back and distributed on pure random draw. This allows lower point holders a chance of pulling a tag without necessarily having to accumulate high numbers of points. To me, that would reward the higher point holders with most of the tags while still giving newer/younger hunters a chance to pull a tag.
 
None taken, I’m the hunter that feels a notched tag is a bonus, not a given every season.

By the same token, there are merits to the points I’ve raised. The MNR should've instilled from the get-go that if it costs a successful hunter X amount of pts to draw a tag, then use X amount only.

Don’t belittle the hunting base by claiming whatever amount the successful applicant had banked up completely. If you were to look at it critically, it’s almost like they are taxing Ont Hunters the extra pts beyond whats required, for their (MNRs) lack of animal management for decades.

Where I hunt we saw a significant reduction in hunters afield this past week. Through conversations with other groups this past week, those other camps/groups felt it was moot point to make the annual trek without a tag, ‘cause what’s the point? Were others showing up the second week? Only one of a known 1/2doz or more camps/groups. Maybe this is part of the fallout for the MNR taking all of the Hunters pts regardless of whats actually required to draw a tag as I mentioned previously. Who knows..

The question I have for yourself (and others) is…

How long into the system is enough? 5, 10, 20yrs?

Are you willing to take that chance and keep applying/accumulating pts up to that length of time, only to have the MNR state the population is not rebounding as predicted/planned (which is a possibility) or it will now take more pts then planned because of that possibility and then costing you everything that you waited on and bought into the hype on for just one hunt, knowing it could take you another 5-10yrs to even be successful at a Calf Tag, let alone a Cow or Bull that could be more pts on top of the Calf requirement because of said lack of population increase? Not all Ont Moose Hunters have that kind of time on their side and that’s how a lot of hunters are currently looking at it.

And let’s not get into the new proposed changes about the second chance, first choice drawing and refusing or declining that successful tag potentially and losing all of your pts..

IMO its a big risk on both the MNRs side and ours as Hunters. We all want to be afield every season with some sort of tag avail that’s not going to take 5-10yrs or more to procure again. Why? Hunting is actually revenue generating and part of Herd management/Conservation… funny that eh?

What the MNR says, actually does and may or may not happen only time will tell, as none of us can predict the future. Yet here we are 4yrs in and still no official word from the MNR on their initial proposed and touted “Hunter Survey/Feedback Form” that was promised when the system changed. Just their annual draw results from the previous yr in the yearly regs.

When I called Pboro last year and asked about this and the troubling use of all my pts for a Tag that requires far less, I got “we’ve heard this concern from a lot of moose hunters and are still acquiring data and looking into it” In other words… “We have no intention of changing that currently or in the near future”…

OMMV (our mileage may vary) on this. We are kind of stuck in a wait n see mode regardless of whether we are for or against the current system…



.
I think the retention of points is what they are trying to eliminate. Reason being that with very high point cost you have these crazy waits and guys in groups not being able to cycle through over the years as it’s intended for group management. Lower the point cost gets the more manageable it is for established groups to reliably manage their membership and draws for consistent reasonable tag counts, just my opinion
 
I understand the frustration of the state of the moose licensing in Ontario. But are you seriously complaining about being able to have a camp on crown land? I would give my left nut to be able to build and have a camp to hunt/fish and take my family to. Sadly here in Alberta it’s not possible. You guys don’t know how good you have it.

And driving to hunt is just part of it. If we as Albertans didn’t drive 4 hours in one direct for deer, 6 hours a different direction for moose and all over the province for every thing else then we would kill anything. I understand the cost of fuel has gone up but that’s why you work harder so you can still have money to play.
Yeah, I live in the NWT but hunt in Alberta by Peace River because the aboriginal harvest in the NWT is out of control. I drive eight hours each way and have to pay over five hundred dollars for a bull elk and buck whitetail tag but I get a nice bull every year and a buck any year I want one. This year daughter shot a bull opening day, I got one on day three. Hate paying the huge money but at least I get results, every year.
 
I would like to see a small percentage of tags held back and distributed on pure random draw. This allows lower point holders a chance of pulling a tag without necessarily having to accumulate high numbers of points. To me, that would reward the higher point holders with most of the tags while still giving newer/younger hunters a chance to pull a tag.
The draw is being reviewed this year and the MNR is proposing some minor changes. One change is have hunters claim their tags in August so that unclaimed tags can be awarded in a yet-to-be disclosed fashion which won’t be points-based.
Moose draw changes
 
Isn’t the point system the fairest and most widespread system for species with limited populations and much greater number of applicants?

I never understood the complaint with this new system and nobody has had a logical non emotional explanation for me
The only real problem is how it impacts new hunters. If you don't care about recruitment, then its a fine system.
 
I think we should be able to pool points as a group. For example my group of 4 currently has 1 point, 1 point, 2 points, and 8 points. I see no reason why we should not be able to apply as a group with 12 points into the draw. It is frustrating. But must be worse for the older guys that don’t have the hunting years left to be waiting on a tag.
 
I think we should be able to pool points as a group. For example my group of 4 currently has 1 point, 1 point, 2 points, and 8 points. I see no reason why we should not be able to apply as a group with 12 points into the draw. It is frustrating. But must be worse for the older guys that don’t have the hunting years left to be waiting on a tag.
So everyone and their dog in a large family does the online hunter ed course to apply but never leaves camp and only a select few get out with their bull tag every fall? Sounds like the old system minus the calf tag.
 
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