Atten Alberta Hunters

The point of my post above was to show that one can take something posative and twist it around to seem negative. And that is what has been going on with the open spaces issue in my view. I thought some of you would recognize that and may respond with some dialouge.

I did not vote at all on the open spaces resolution. Our club had left it up to the disgresion of the delegates and as the fellows I was there with chose to vote against it I felt it would not be good for our club (and my relation ship with it) to vote for. I wish now I had voted just so the "unanomus" would have been removed. As I stated when I stood at the mike it would have been easier and faster to do the ballot and the session could continue while the votes were counted. (there was supposed to be a counted vote which never took place)

The main reason for having a secret ballot is so those who are for or undesided are not swayed or influenced to cast their vote by looking over their shoulder to see how everyone else is voting. It takes the "vote like a sheep" factor out. Perhaps those against open spaces are counting on the "vote like a sheep" factor.

It doesn't bother me that there are people opposed to Open Spaces. It bothers me tha so many appear to be against it because they do not understand it or base their opinion on "what if this happend..." or "is a slippery slope, this will probably be next..."

Have a good one guy and remember Mortom "the devil" who had something to do ith open spaces is also Morton the friend who is expanding Sunday hunting in much of the province.

Robin in Rocky
 
I did not vote at all on the open spaces resolution. Our club had left it up to the disgresion of the delegates and as the fellows I was there with chose to vote against it I felt it would not be good for our club (and my relation ship with it) to vote for

So you're ok with OS but not actually willing to support it through your vote and then you say this:

It takes the "vote like a sheep" factor out.

You do realize that by not man'ing up and voting for something you claim to support, the sheep factor is already in play.
 
You are right. I should have voted for it. (I think I already said that somewhere) And those against O.S. who would not hear of a secret ballet were successful in intimidating me and possibly some others.


Now they can all stand up and say "the Af&GA menbers are NOT IN SUPPORT of the proposed O.S." and what does that really mean?

Robin in Rocky
 
You are right. I should have voted for it. (I think I already said that somewhere) And those against O.S. who would not hear of a secret ballet were successful in intimidating me and possibly some others.


Now they can all stand up and say "the Af&GA menbers are NOT IN SUPPORT of the proposed O.S." and what does that really mean?

Robin in Rocky

Given your inability to stand up and vote for what you believe in, do you still believe people should respect your opinions and what you claim to represent?
 
You are right. I should have voted for it. (I think I already said that somewhere) And those against O.S. who would not hear of a secret ballet were successful in intimidating me and possibly some others.


Now they can all stand up and say "the Af&GA menbers are NOT IN SUPPORT of the proposed O.S." and what does that really mean?

Robin in Rocky

What a joke. I was for the 6-point Elk in the 300 zones resolution - me and two other guys.

I wasn't intimidated, because it was something I believe in.

You duffy would make a great negotiator because you employ the same tactics as a child - you only see your position and you won't take no for an answer.
You really need to stop and think about how all of the others at the meeting could be wrong and only you could be a visionary. Maybe lay off the bottle.
 
Premier Stelmach Speaks

We have finally gotten a response from Premier Stelmach in regards to the Open Spaces pilot project.

He has committed to bring this back to caucus if they are re-elected.

I would encourage you to ask your local MLA what their position is on this proposal, and how they would approach it if it goes back to caucus.




http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/attachment.php?attachmentid=3934&d=1204415208
 
You beat me to it.

This is straight ahead politics and the PC's are terrified of bleeding too much of their power base to the right. Contact your MLA and Ed and make your position known.

Duffy you will have to develope a position before proceeding
 
Well the PC's are in big time and here is the most recent Tedism I can find on OS:

Pincher Creek Echo

By Jocelyn Mercer
Friday February 29, 2008

Ted Morton was in Pincher Creek on Feb. 11 to show support for local conservative candidate Evan Berger.
The minister for sustainable resource development took the opportunity to talk about his plans for developing hunting in the province.
Morton says that the number of hunters in Alberta has declined along with wildlife habitat and access to that habitat. He wants to reverse that trend by paying landowners to allow hunters on their land.
Around 85 per cent of land in south and central Alberta is owned by private landowners, says the politician, and that means that ranchers and farmers are footing the cost of conservation measures.
“So it’s no wonder you see a loss of habitat,” he said. “For the last 30 years (we’ve) left that cost of providing space for conservation to landowners.”


Morton says access has declined after landowners have gotten tired of the five to 10 per cent of hunters that leave gates open, and so have prohibited access to their lands.
To reverse this trend he’s proposing to sign landowners up to a new program that will see them getting paid for every ‘hunter day’ of access to their land. He suggested that stipend could be between $10 and $20 a day, depending on the amount of land and how good its wildlife habitat is.
“It’s at the design stage. The details haven’t been worked out yet,” he said.
Morton is also proposing to give hunting tags to landowners to sell privately.
He says having larger wildlife herds is expensive for them because it effects their farming operations.
If the landowners were able to make money by selling their hunting tags, Morton said it would be compensation for having larger ungulate populations.
“Make wildlife an asset rather than a liability,” said Morton.

They don't have an ELK herd, let them grow one then they have a problem with elk so let them sell tags to hunt elk.

There are fewer hunters so you reduce the number of resident tags and then farmers sell tags to Americans.

The man is a genius!
 
Does anyone here know if Bill Morton (Rdige Country Ourfitters) Cardston is related to Ted Morton. I'm not getting any answers to my calls or e-mails.

I figure Bill would probably want to distance himself as far away from this thing, if he isn't related to the Minister who is trying to give the goose the lays the Golden eggs to outfitters down there.
 
You likely won't get any feedback Ike. I have been told by a landowner fromt he area he operates that they are related.

None of this information was supposed to get out, that is why the working group was asked to sign non-disclosure agreements.

The more we bring this to light, the stinkier it becomes.
 
So far there are a couple of unconfirmed claims that the Mortons are related.

I sent a letter to Stelmach asking for some clarification. One thing that won't sit well with any Albertan is a minister who is using his position to line a family members pockets.
 
http://www.lethbridgeherald.com/article_10042.php

From LethbridgeHerald.com

Top Story
Hunters have sights set on Open Spaces
By RIC SWIHART
Mar 6, 2008, 21:57



Open Spaces Alberta: Alberta’s New Cultural Policy is ringing up positives from the arts world to recreationists.
But it has run into a brick wall with the world of hunting in Alberta.
Ted Morton, Minister for Sustainable Resource Development, has been pursuing a pilot project he feels will assure Albertans greater access to the wildlife resource while providing landowners some degree of compensation.
The brick wall widened in late February.
Morton, in the middle of his election campaign, addressed the Alberta Fish and Game Association conference in Edmonton — the Liberals had been excluded — to reveal his two-part proposal scheduled to begin this fall.
One is the Recreational Access Management Program. The other is Hunting for Habitat Program.
Southwestern Alberta is at the heart of the debate. The pilots are scheduled for Alberta Wildlife Management Unit 108, which runs from near the County of Lethbridge Airport in a triangle to the American border running along Highways 4 and 5.
The other is Unit 300, which is anchored by Cardston on the northeast, running along the southern boundary of the Blood Reserve, north along that boundary to near Glenwood, west to near the forest reserve and then angling southeast along the northern boundary of Waterton Lakes National Park.
In the Recreational Access Management Program, large private landowners will be compensated $10 to $20 per user day by the government, to a maximum of 100 days per section, “for providing recreational access for hunting and fishing for free to the public.”
For the same access, the Hunting for Habitat Program will compensate private landowners with wildlife tags from resident allocations which they can sell to resident hunters or to outfitters who can then re-sell the tags to guide non-resident Canadians, or non-resident aliens.
Brian Dingreville, president of the Lethbridge Fish and Game Association, came out swinging.
“I would pay for full-page advertisements to stop this plan,” Dingreville said. “This must be stopped.”
Maurice Nadeau of Edmonton, the Alberta association president, said the greatest risk is both proposals would entitle landowners — who would be required to enrol in the program — to receive money from hunters.
Nadeau points out it is illegal for a landowner to charge money for access to land for the purpose of hunting or fishing.
“The fish and game membership views the Open Spaces Project as privatization of Alberta’s wild resources, something the association vehemently opposes,” said Nadeau. “Just as we opposed the ill-fated decision to allow privatization of wildlife, game farmers, no good could come of it, and now our wild ungulates face huge health risks.”
Nadeau said the association has no objection to landowners being recognized for good habitat stewardship and providing sports people access to their lands.
“We would suggest that tax incentives could be one of the tools by which this happens,” he said.
Two political parties have come out strongly opposed to the paid-hunting plan.
Lethbridge East Liberal MLA Bridget Pastoor said nothing in the hunting pilot programs fits in with Liberal plans.
“We wanted to tell Fish and Game of our vision to protect Alberta’s natural wonders,” said Pastoor.
Wildrose Alliance leader Paul Hinman, who represented both pilot wildlife management areas, has also campaigned against the pilot projects. He was narrowly felled in the Alberta election by Tory Broyce Jacobs.
Paid hunting is a right in several states in the United States, including Montana.
In December, Morton led a delegation from Alberta to Helena, Mont., and on to Utah to gauge the hunting laws and programs, said Alan Charles of the Montana Fish and Wildlife Department.
Charles, in charge of the wildlife block management program, said charging a hunter a fee to access their land is a right in Montana.
But that doesn’t make it right, he said.
About 20 years ago, Montana launched its block management program to offset the impacts of pure paid hunting.
Using state funds, landowners can register annually with the block management program. Those registering agree to allow hunters and fishermen access to their land, tempered by common-sense rules the landowners wish to safeguard their land resource.
Compensation from the state fund is based on hunter days for each parcel registered. The compensation is $10 per hunter day to a maximum of $12,000 a year.
“Last year 1,250 landowners enrolled in the program,” said Charles.
Those landowners controlled about 8.5 million acres. The majority of that land was private. Some state and federal lands were included, he said.
A bonus for the participating landowners is an annual hunting and fishing licence. The state also provides public liability for hunters accessing landowner lands.
The average block payout last year was about $3,000.
“We wanted to find a way to preserve traditional hunting where hunters would not have to pay a fee to hunt,” he said. “We also wanted to recognize that it is a privilege for hunters to come on private land.”
Darrel Rowledge of Calgary, a political scientist and spokesman for the Alliance for Public Wildlife, said Morton’s Open Spaces proposal comes down to a matter of economics.
At the heart of the crisis is a failure to solve the financial ills of the agriculture industry and providing a pay-to-hunt policy is only an attempt to pour more money into the agriculture industry. It could, however, decimate the province’s wildlife resource at a time when it is government’s burden to protect that resource, he said.
Hunting and fishing have become another major industry in North America, said Rowledge.
In the U.S., it is worth $120 billion a year in first-time spending. In Canada, it is worth $12.1 billion, a figure which nears the $12.3-billion financial contribution of the agriculture sector to the nation’s gross domestic product.
Rowledge said paid hunting and fishing will remove the sport realities.
Fishing can be made simple. Just use dynamite and the fish will float to the surface. Compare that with money-spending fishermen who use hooks and flies in the real sport of fishing.
And paid hunting is a guarantee of game. Traditional hunting keeps the masses coming back hoping for game.
Rowledge said traditional hunting and fishing is the best way the wildlife resource can be maintained and even controlled.
Bob Scammell, a fish and game supporter, said critics immediately warned no matter where the money comes from, the programs add up to paying for access to land that is unlawful under The Wildlife Act.
It would mean paid-hunting programs that will actually close hunting spaces for ordinary resident hunters and open them to wealthy foreign shooters, he said.

© Copyright by LethbridgeHerald.com
 
Ted Morton is back as head of SRD and STelmach appointed Evan Berger to help him out.

What are the odds? There are 2 MLA's whose ridings are in the middle of the OS fiasco and one of them gets a job with SRD.
 
Many thanks to Mike for keeping the hammer down and keep us up to speed.


The following has also been presented to at least one M.D., Municipal Affairs, SRD and Fish & Wildlife for consideration and account:

It is the desire of the Province (letter from Ted Morton and information available on the University of Calgary website) to increase wild game populations, a public trust, and give control and/or de facto ownership of these same game animals to certain landowners for personal economic gain. This is especially relevant to the Hunting for Habitat (HFH) proposal.

The logical and desired (apparently) outcome of the increase in game populations (particularly elk) is a net decrease in current and potential agricultural lands. It can be argued, at the very least, that portions of the land use will change from agricultural to commercial and/or recreational as evidenced by particular landowner’s economic gain in the sale of wildlife and access to the same. Will participating landowners have their property tax reassessed (increased) to recognize the change in land usage and increased economic benefits of the same?

I have spoken to a local M.D. Tax Assessor in regard to these concerns. I was told that these changes in land use and questions with regard to property tax are usually handled by a directive from Municipal Affairs. Failing that, it was suggested that any changes in tax assessment would likely be at the discretion of the individual assessor(s). It was agreed that the unique and somewhat biased benefits created by the HFH program to a few, select landowners might present an interesting challenge within M.D.’s. If the economic benefits of “selling” wildlife and/or access are greater than the economic benefits of agriculture, and especially if particular land titles can be identified, it would appear that land use could be reclassified from agricultural to recreational/commercial and the property tax could be adjusted to reflect the additional economic gains.

Evidently, Municipal Affairs, SRD and Fish & Wildlife had not given this any consideration and are currently consulting with their lawyers to provide answers.

Additionally, it was asked how revenues from the sale of HFH tags (a public trust) would be treated. It certainly appears that revenue would not qualify as Farm Income as the wildlife is not a farm asset (again a public trust). How would the income from the “sale” of a public trust be taxed outside of agricultural or farm income?
 
This has nothing to do with people running around like a bunch of animate, retarded pylons. We have more than 4 big game animals to hunt in our province, without counting coyotes, and your jealous. Go away:p.


Retards? wtf...:shotgun:

We have black bear, moose and deer for our big game critters here. which ill only eat the first two.

PS, not jealous. We have better fishing :D and way cheaper cost of living :D :D
 
Retards? wtf...:shotgun:

We have black bear, moose and deer for our big game critters here. which ill only eat the first two.

Still haven't figured out how to clean a deer out there have you? Must be that queer head hanging thing you do.


PS, not jealous. We have better fishing :D and way cheaper cost of living :D :D


You might have that but you've got a premier that is hell bent on banning all hand guns and semis. No spring bear season. Toronto. Ottawa. You border Quebec AND New York. You are a Liberal bastion and the epitomy of the "nanny state". Super high taxes. Toronto. Ottawa.

Thanks, but I'll pay more for my house and travel to the coast for my fishing.
 
Still haven't figured out how to clean a deer out there have you? Must be that queer head hanging thing you do.





You might have that but you've got a premier that is hell bent on banning all hand guns and semis. No spring bear season. Toronto. Ottawa. You border Quebec AND New York. You are a Liberal bastion and the epitomy of the "nanny state". Super high taxes. Toronto. Ottawa.

Thanks, but I'll pay more for my house and travel to the coast for my fishing.


Huh?

I bet I can clean a deer better then you can wise ass.

You pay more for your house, smokes, groceries, what ever.. I really dont give a rats ass, I just hate it when you westerners insult us that live in Ontario. What the flippin hell do we have to do with politics and how they act?

You treat us like we are Iran FFS. It's pretty ####ed up hearing some of the #### from people out in the west, because those I have met and am related to in the west are nothing like some of you on here.

WE ARE ALL ####ING CANADIAN, some have it a tad better then others, but in the end we will all be delt the same hand unfairly. Look at it in that aspect before you go shooting your drunken mouth off.
 
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