Bear Defense Rifle Optic?

[alpining]

As others have said, but it deserves repeating: If you need magnification to get on target, then it's not a wildlife defense situation.

If you happen to have a magnified optic on your hunting rifle that you are using for wildlife defense, then that's a different issue. It's not ideal, but it is very common (hunting in bear country, etc.).

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned regarding red dots and specifically open ones like the rmr is exposure to rain, ice or snow and what can happen when the lens is wet.....

Absolutely, a closed tube design is the way to go with a red dot for this application.

... allow for cowitnessing of iron sights. ...

You'd be hard pressed to find a typical wildlife defense firearm that allows co-witnessing irons through an RDS. Not impossible. But not worth it, in my opinion, with something as high quality as the Aimpoint you recommend. Replace the battery every year on your birthday, and you're fine.

 

[medvedqc]

Oh I believe they would work but at 25m or less I know irons are superior, rds would be a close second. Ask anyone that works in the bush and carry’s something type of firearm for protection what they’re set up is, I bet the majority are not using an optic. We’re not talking about your hunting gun that you can use to shoot a bear but a dedicated predator defense gun, two different things.

when hiking and not using a shotgun with a short barrel im taking a rifle with a small optic on it and never felt handicapped ... but i had to use two times a scope rifle when black bears charged me in 2 different occasions so i do know what is working for me ... and im still here to prove my point.

 

[Big Bad]

As others have said, but it deserves repeating: If you need magnification to get on target, then it's not a wildlife defense situation.

If you happen to have a magnified optic on your hunting rifle that you are using for wildlife defense, then that's a different issue. It's not ideal, but it is very common (hunting in bear country, etc.).




Absolutely, a closed tube design is the way to go with a red dot for this application.





You'd be hard pressed to find a typical wildlife defense firearm that allows co-witnessing irons through an RDS. Not impossible. But not worth it, in my opinion, with something as high quality as the Aimpoint you recommend. Replace the battery every year on your birthday, and you're fine.

Yes that's true, as you say in most cases, but another virtue of the PRO is that it can almost instantly be dismounted from the rifle in the highly unlikely event it failed to function at the critical moment, so there is that.

 

[BlackRam]

The best advice given is:
Be practiced and confident in the use of the weapon and sighting system that you own and use!
Experience is the best teacher.
Everyone is different, thinks, acts and/or reacts differently; respect their opinion and experience as it works for them. You need to find your own solution that works best for you! This takes time and experimentation to determine...and as illustrated above, even those who do this for a living are constantly learning and evolving over time and new advances in technology.
Prepare for the worst, and hope for the best. This means being both mentally and physically prepared!

Hopefully you will never need to put into action what you have prepared for, and enjoy the rest of your adventures.

 

[wannabe]

I find that the "scout scope" position for an optic to be my favourite for defensive carry...I carry my protection rifle sometimes for long periods and I enjoy the easy of carry of a bare receiver....levers I find the nicest for this type of carry. then pump shotguns and finally bolt rifles....my medium hands find a conventional mounted scope position somewhat awkward for "trail" carry though for a hunting rig its what I use....I will most often carry my hunting rig in a sling whereas I like a defensive rifle in my hand...I find the ability to wrap my hand completely around the rifle's point of balance makes it feel lighter and somehow handier and easier to maneuver with...when on a quad a detachable magazine requirement changes the equation completely....

 

[medvedqc]

The best advice given is:
Be practiced and confident in the use of the weapon and sighting system that you own and use!
Experience is the best teacher.
Everyone is different, thinks, acts and/or reacts differently; respect their opinion and experience as it works for them. You need to find your own solution that works best for you! This takes time and experimentation to determine...and as illustrated above, even those who do this for a living are constantly learning and evolving over time and new advances in technology.
Prepare for the worst, and hope for the best. This means being both mentally and physically prepared!

Hopefully you will never need to put into action what you have prepared for, and enjoy the rest of your adventures.

+1.
that is exactly that: use what you like and practise and make sure you never have to use it despite being prepared .

 

[Evanguy]

This thread seems like people just shoot at bears if they are within 50 feet of the person.

If a bear is charging you it will be moving at 50kmh and from out of no where. Honestly you don't even need sights you just need to blast when it's 20 feet away.

That's why shotguns seem to be good for bear defense you just look at the bear and pull the gun up to shoot. No aiming at all. It just shoots where you are looking.

 

[rommelrommel]

Amazing that the logic that makes red dots fast for engaging someone that's trying to kill you evaporates when the opponent is a wild animal.

 

[Gatehouse]

There's no aiming device faster or more intuitive than a good red dot system.

 

[AlexisCreek]

A bear rifle for "hiking"? Gee, I must be lucky. Like many other people I know, I've hiked extensively in Grizzly country in BC without carrying any firearm at all. Somehow we've all survived. I like my rifles, but why carry one when it's unnecessary?

 

[Bartok5]

... You'd be hard pressed to find a typical wildlife defense firearm that allows co-witnessing irons through an RDS.....

Not to put too fine a point on it, and at the expense of repeating myself, I give you the Troy PAR in .300 Blk with Lower 1/3 Co-Witnessed Irons on an Illuminated 1x Reticle. Granted it may not be "typical", but then what is?:

 

[medvedqc]

A bear rifle for "hiking"? Gee, I must be lucky. Like many other people I know, I've hiked extensively in Grizzly country in BC without carrying any firearm at all. Somehow we've all survived. I like my rifles, but why carry one when it's unnecessary?

we hiked with a couple of friends that had a small baby. if you ever heard a baby in the middle of nowhere that is calling for food. after 2 hours we got a curious bear very close to us. we never shoot at him but glad we had it just in case ...

 

[alpining]

Not to put too fine a point on it, and at the expense of repeating myself, I give you the Troy PAR in .300 Blk with Lower 1/3 Co-Witnessed Irons on an Illuminated 1x Reticle. Granted it may not be "typical", but then what is?:...

Haha, I hear you! I like the way you have your PAR set up. I'd like to see more options like it available in Canada.

But since you asked: I think there are typical firearms for this application, like the pump shotgun or heavy levergun. Off the shelf, they don't give you the option of a tall enough front sight to make backup iron sights work with a red dot. At least, not without significant modification.

It's all beside the point for me though, because I don't think backup iron sights are necessary if using a reliable red dot.

 

[jamesharrison]

You should also know a bit about bear/cougar behaviour and be able to recognize and respond correctly to a defensive or predatory encounter.

BB:

I found it quite interesting that all previous documented reports of bear attacks in the Whiteshell over the previous ~25 years were all defensive, but not these ones. They were all offensive attacks, according to the biologists hired by MB Conservation to study the attacks.

I've only seen 2 cougar in my life in the Whiteshell; a few more in Nopiming, the provincial park immediately north of the Whiteshell, although doubtless there are many more.

I'm of 2 minds about why we are seeing more predator / human interactions.

One is that after the '07 Derecho & the big forest fires over the last 7 years in SE MB / NW Ontario, the remaining predators have less normal food groups available; the other is that Mother nature has finally $#!T the DDT out of her system after its banning years ago and the populations have grown.

For instance, it was a rare occasion when I was young to see Bald or Golden Eagles, Pelicans, wolverine, badgers, wolves & ravens. Not any more; we've had them come into the yard in broad daylight. Then again, when I was young, we used to see Woodland Caribou in Bedford or Turtle Bay. Not for ~60 years now.

 

[canadian hunter312]

Good points, but the Aimpoint PRO answers those concerns and is always my recommendation. They can be left turned on for an absurdly long time and also allow for cowitnessing of iron sights. You can even use one with both lens caps both closed, or keep the downrange cap closed for total invisibility, and they will accommodate several makes of magnifiers. I know there are newer red dot sights that are even better in the battery life department, but the Pro just fills me with confidence.

The potential unexpected scenarios for scopes or optics to fail are:

Rain or snow distorting vision
Optic fogging up
Dead batteries
Forgetting to turn on the optic
Optic getting hung up on clothing or brush
Damaged glass
Losing zero
Manufacturers defect

The potential for irons to fail you are:

???


Along with...

Don't look cool
User doesn't feel like a tactical operator
Internet 'pros' think you're a dinosaur

 

[Callee]

Related question: what's everyone's thoughts on those flip-to-the-side scope mounts? A buddy of mine has one, and says it is handy for when he wants to use the scope or pivot it out of the way for short range aiming. That idea makes sense to me, but do they really work out that way?

 

[Gatehouse]

Rain or snow distorting vision
Optic fogging up

This is easy to mitigate with a little rainX or with completely enclosed optics

Dead batteries

Replace the batteries once a year on your birthday and you will be fine.

Forgetting to turn on the optic

You can also forget to put ammo into your firearm, so do them both at the same time

If you are the type that forgets lots of tings you can also get an optic with an etched reticle that doesn't need to be turned on or one that doesn't need batteries.

Optic getting hung up on clothing or brush

Not really an issue, no more than a front sight getting hung up.

Damaged glass
Losing zero
Manufacturers defect



Pretty rare/doesn't happen with a quality optic


We heard concerns like these with scopes on hunting rifles too. But it doesn't happen often with quality scopes.

If you want ultimate redundancy, install back up iron sights that either co-witness or can flip up to co-witness . And most red dots have QD realeases so you can take it off and use back ups too.

In the end, I think red dot advantages outweigh the negatives. Just like a scope on a hunting rifle has more pros than cons that sticking with iron sights.

 

[alpining]

The potential unexpected scenarios for scopes or optics to fail are:...

I like and use both irons and red dot sights on different firearms and for different reasons.

If you don't like red dot sights, that's fine. Your list of potential failures can certainly apply to the cheap red dot options - You missed that the optic mount can break, a panicked user might not be able to find the dot, and that a lens cover or optic cover might get hung up when you're trying to remove it in a hurry. But your points are mostly not applicable to a high quality red dot sight with a reasonably competent user.

Iron sights are not perfect: They can get obscured by mud or snow or ice or gun case debris or boogers or... They can get knocked out of zero or broken. They can snag. And they are pretty much useless once twilight has dropped far enough.

 

[DBeato]

just dont be the guy who's last thoughts are about the deal you got on the Chinese red dot on a Turkish shotgun when the bear is on top of you.

 

[Shovel]

Bought a Bushnell made in china and a Winchester made in Turkey