Bear rifle. Will 44 mag be enough?

[apu]

I have shot quite a few black bear, anything from 410 slug , 30/30, 30 06, 300 win mag, 45/70. What I have learned is don't use a 410 slug, lol. Its probably not much better than a pistol round and In my defense it was at the time a choice of absolute need not preference. The 300 win mag is absolutely devastating with a good hunting bullet. Most 30 cal rounds with good bullets are ok too. A 45/70 with a hard cast lead bullet not such a great choice, it just penciled right through, a soft lead or hunting projectile would be much better. Next one will be with a 458 lott and premium hunting bullet just because I can and because I have no suitable angry rhinos on my property

 

[Ardent]

You’ll find the Lott impresses, where the .45-70 often doesn’t. Key isn’t a mystery, but worth reiterating, impacts above 2200fps make for a phase shift in on game effect. And more is indeed helpful, but 2200 is the bare min, which typically means 2400fps bare minimum at the muzzle which is Lott country.

 

[Dogleg]

Its a bit caliber sensitive, larger calibers start kicking ass around the 2200fps mark but things iin the more normal 7- 7.62 mm range come alive at 2600 fps.. with boringly regular bullets its more or less the threshold for the phenomena commonly called hydra-stadic shock. I’d rather use “stunning” instead of shock but tomato/tomoughto. I’ll not go into an discussion about whether it exists , or whether its reliable, or whether the name is technically correct, or whether shock is the right word but we all know that sometimes animals hit through the boiler room often go down deader faster than an animal with the top of its head shot off. Theres a lot more to the nervous system than the CNS. The autonomic plexes are bundles of nerves that basically are hard wired. You don’t have to remind your heart to beat, or your digestive tract to work, and just about every day you can go to sleep without dieing. If you had an elephant on an operating table you could take it out with a scalpel, but you probably don’t and neither do I. Out of the three main thorasic plexes my favourite is the vagous nerve. It wanders around like a vagabond doing a bunch of things and on females ends at the cervix. That almost describes my idea of a perfect life. It would be a better story if it ended at the other /other C word, but then apparently lots of guys couldn’t find it.

What were we talking about again? Oh, so anyways, it goes so far to explaining why heavy for caliber mild caliber guys insist that fatally shot game almost always runs, normal range magnum velocity guys think they’re full of kaka. Might explain gut shots that kill instantly from all visual cues. Goes a long to explaining why the bush range hunter with a 30-06 shooting whatever standard factory ammo is on sale can’t comprehend why someone else might want more gun. How about hits just above the heart killing way faster than one square through the pump. Jack O’Connor explained that one me to when I was 8; he didn’t know why, and I didn’t care then but he wasn’t wrong.


Or maybe it doesn’t explain anything, I had fun typing it anyway.

 

[Ardent]

Here’s a couple recent stories I’ve read, and I appreciate their honesty as they mirrored what I saw on big bears with big slow chamberings. The first shot would indeed have been fatal each time, but without the immediacy of something of modern pace. Wounds were much cleaner, which told the story of less work done to my mind. The bang flop is handy when the mystery & magic decides to show, but I’m here for the greater general terminal effects- with a significant bonus should you get the shock.

The pictures are from out in the north coast rivers and creeks last week, and what I had to follow bears through in far worse weather when they took a last run. They push through it like it isn’t there, and it pops back and closes up right behind them. Not to mention the rivers they’d cross wounded, and the myriad of places a large bear can go to die out of sight here.

If I beat this dead horse too often, it was such a common conversation and misconception I had to bust with American clients who love big bores, but quietly won’t admit they’re not interested in shooting .458 Lott recoil to get 2400fps. Hey, neither am I. But we’d go through this back and forth, where by the end of it I’d have to just ask if they owned a .30-06, 7 Mag, or .300? Of course they did, and after an hour you could usually talk them into it.

JEFF "TANK" HOOVER We were rewarded with the tell-tale “thump” of the big 400-grain bullet hitting flesh. The bull reacted but didn’t take a step. “Hit him again,” Austin said as I worked the lever.

Once again we heard the “whump” of the bullet hitting. The bull turned, facing us, head drooping low and stopping me from taking a frontal chest shot. The bull finally exposed his chest and I fired my third and final shot.

….475 Turnbull. Pushed with 56 grains of IMR 4198, muzzle velocity is 2,070 fps.

From 27 yards, boxed in by a blackthorn thicket, Turnbull fired a 400-grain TSX directly through the broadside bull’s heart and lungs.

As it exploded through the brush, running across in front of us, he fired a second shot, which deflected on a branch and impacted the flank area.

At the second shot the bull pinpointed us and charged like a demoniac locomotive. Standing fast, Turnbull ran that lever gun like John Wayne and drove another bullet through the vitals. As the bull rounded the dense thornbush directly in front of us, Turnbull and Strauss fired simultaneously from five yards. Turnbull’s 400-grain solid punched through the bull’s ear, drove into its neck, and traveled lengthwise through the buffalo, taking out a section of spine. Strauss’s Hornady 500-grain DGX Bonded from his .470 Nitro Express rifle brained the bull perfectly. It came crashing down in a cloud of dust four short paces in front of us.

Mr. Turnbull and his rebuilt Winchester Model 1886 held off that bull in grand fashion.

 

[big bear]

Its a bit caliber sensitive, larger calibers start kicking ass around the 2200fps mark but things iin the more normal 7- 7.62 mm range come alive at 2600 fps.. with boringly regular bullets its more or less the threshold for the phenomena commonly called hydra-stadic shock. I’d rather use “stunning” instead of shock but tomato/tomoughto. I’ll not go into an discussion about whether it exists , or whether its reliable, or whether the name is technically correct, or whether shock is the right word but we all know that sometimes animals hit through the boiler room often go down deader faster than an animal with the top of its head shot off. Theres a lot more to the nervous system than the CNS. The autonomic plexes are bundles of nerves that basically are hard wired. You don’t have to remind your heart to beat, or your digestive tract to work, and just about every day you can go to sleep without dieing. If you had an elephant on an operating table you could take it out with a scalpel, but you probably don’t and neither do I. Out of the three main thorasic plexes my favourite is the vagous nerve. It wanders around like a vagabond doing a bunch of things and on females ends at the cervix. That almost describes my idea of a perfect life. It would be a better story if it ended at the other /other C word, but then apparently lots of guys couldn’t find it.

What were we talking about again? Oh, so anyways, it goes so far to explaining why heavy for caliber mild caliber guys insist that fatally shot game almost always runs, normal range magnum velocity guys think they’re full of kaka. Might explain gut shots that kill instantly from all visual cues. Goes a long to explaining why the bush range hunter with a 30-06 shooting whatever standard factory ammo is on sale can’t comprehend why someone else might want more gun. How about hits just above the heart killing way faster than one square through the pump. Jack O’Connor explained that one me to when I was 8; he didn’t know why, and I didn’t care then but he wasn’t wrong.


Or maybe it doesn’t explain anything, I had fun typing it anyway.

With all due respect to you and Jack O'Connor I would like to share an experience I had with a heart shot. I took a 6pt elk at 400yds off a comfortable boulder rest, at an uphill angle of about 20 degrees. the bull was feeding on the side of the mountain and unaware of me.My shot took out the right atrium . The elk collapsed on the spot and pumped out a lot of blood. My buddy, a long time guide , commented that the meat was the "lightest" he had ever seen. We attributed that to the elk bleeding out. The meat was great.I was using a 300 WinMag, Remington 180gr plain vanilla Core Lockt. I have used that for all the elk(except 1), moose and sheep, goat and caribou i have killed, plus some of the black bears. I use it because my rifle shoots it more accurately than any other commercial loads. I reload more now so I play with other bullets.

The one elk I didn't use my 300WinMag on was taken with the Remington 338WinMag 225gr Corelokt bullet. That bull took 3 shots just behind the shoulder , a 3" group , at 250yds. That elk , also taken while feeding, just stood there. His cows took off, then he slowly walked out of sight.My guide thought I had missed. We found the elk about 25yds away from where he was shot dead as could be.
Your thoughts on the results noted. I still hunt mostly with 300WinMaqg 180gr coreLokt for most all game.

Cheers and good hunting.

 

[Dogleg]

I’ve got no problem with your observation of the high heart shot giving an instant collapse, I find it usually works faster than a shot square through the heart. No problem with the 300 Win or the corelock bullet either. I’ve also shot groups on animals that couldn’t decide which direction to fall over. I don’t think we’re disagreeing, or least I’m not.

 

[big bear]

I’ve got no problem with your observation of the high heart shot giving an instant collapse, I find it usually works faster than a shot square through the heart. No problem with the 300 Win or the corelock bullet either. I’ve also shot groups on animals that couldn’t decide which direction to fall over. I don’t think we’re disagreeing, or least I’m not.

Thanks for reply, I do indeed agree with your observations.
Cheers!

 

[KaneZoR]

Oops

 

[Kats]

Looked at terminal balistics. 45-70, 12ga have similar Ft. Lb. (energies about 1500); .44 mag, about half that.

Sorry for the necro bump, but 45-70 gov can be store bought loaded over 2000FPS. ( https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=151 ) The reason I bring this up is because my son in-law and daughter want me to take/teach them deer hunting. The problem is most of my life I hunted on farms in Manitoba (now living in BC interior) and didn't have to worry about bears or packing out game in warm weather. My second issue, as a lefty, I gravitated towards lever guns early on as there's not many bolt guns I like that are lefty (my only one is a Tikka M695 in 7mm Mag). So I figured I'd pick up another gun that could double as bear defence and maybe the odd hunting shot (though I'd let the kids have first crack at it). Thinking a bear defence situation would either be a head or chest shot at very close range, a 45-70 would be a great choice for me. But after reading this whole thread, I already have an 1895 chambered in 30-06 and maybe that would be just as good or better. I just find it hard to believe considering modern powders/carts for the 45-70 upwards to and over 2300fps at the muzzle. Is it really still the case at these MV the 45-70 has less stopping power?

 

[pounder]

I carried a Ruger Redhawk .44 with a 4" brl. brute to practice with. I know velocity was slower than a rifle but it was for bad breath range. I always said it was 5 for the bear and 1 for me.

 

[EasternCountryBoy]

I haven’t tested the rifle yet but I have a 500 S&W with 400 gr bear loads. Be curious to see what it can do

 

[struff55]

Here's an article from Rambo himself LOL! Far from an expert, I agree with his assertion that a reliable semi auto is a better choice over a pump shotgun in such a stressful situation for most people. With that said, I think I'd go with a browning BAR in .338 win mag & open sights (ghost ring on the rear/ High rez. on the front). I'd practice like crazy with it & see if I could handle the repetitive recoil and still make decent, fast shots out to no further than 75 yards. Anyhow here's the article:

https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/rifle-vs-shotgun-bear-defense/490740#replay

no such thing as a reliable semi auto he has no idea what he is talking about

 

[pounder]

I think the trick if there is such a thing is to wait to shoot so your shots count.

 

[struff55]

the breaking bone theory is nonsense if you are confronted with a bear it will be face to face not broad side
lungs chest face
slugs work well but buck shot even better when you hit a bear in the lungs with a massive ball of lead the size of a base ball or a grapefruit it is done
a bear on three legs one broken from a misplaced shot is very fast and pissed

 

[phillyblt]

45-70 will work but if using slugs look ùp Brenneke black magic

 

[MiG25]

the breaking bone theory is nonsense if you are confronted with a bear it will be face to face not broad side
lungs chest face
slugs work well but buck shot even better when you hit a bear in the lungs with a massive ball of lead the size of a base ball or a grapefruit it is done
a bear on three legs one broken from a misplaced shot is very fast and pissed

Take the medium of your choice and compare the penetration of decent slugs vs buckshot.

 

[Locked out]

16” 30/30 trapper . You will have zero issues .
I have a .44 mag Mares leg and it’s fantastic but my personal preference is a 16” carbine

 

[pounder]

In our of job guarding other people , the best case of a worst case was the bear charged the guard. The worst case was the bear charging or grabbing a client so where would you shoot? This shot is to get the bear off the person , not to kill it. This was a target we used for practice. We carried rifles.

 

[mark2015]

Heyo,

Does anyone have any experience with a short lever backcountry just in case rifle?

I was thinking 44 mag, short barrel lever (I could go 357 )
Some recommend 45-70 which is probably the best. I just haven't shot one before so I don't know how it handles, wanted to stick with something I'm more familiar with. Plus I don't reload.

I also have a short barrel 12ga. If anyone has any recommendations for ammo that would be awesome.

Just looking to see what kind of experiences people have encountered
Thanks

I've harvested a lot of bears over the years. Either shot them or seen them shot with a lot of cartridges. I'll share a few points that I think are important for your inquiry.

Bears are not hard to kill, but sometimes it seems to take about a minute after they have been fatally shot to stop moving.

Shot placement is very important. There are two very popular schools of thought on where to shoot. One is to shoot the lungs/heart and the other is to bust their shoulders so they cannot move too fast and then you can finish them. I am not going to debate this with anyone but I am a disciple of the fatal shot and they die in a minute or so.

Bear killing and bear stopping are two very different things. None of the cartridges you have mentioned will reliably stop a bear, all of them will kill a bear. As a couple of other posters have mentioned bear stopping starts around 40+ caliber, 400 grains and 2400fps. My stopping cartridge was a 416 Rigby loaded with 120 grains of H4831sc topped with a 400grain Swift AFrame. Others will have their favourites, IIRC it was a little over 2600 at the muzzle and it kicked viciously - but I have never before or after seen anything lay a bear down that reliably.

Bear killing...practically that would start around 30 30 power and go on up.

I killed a bear that walked in my summer cabin one year with my old 45 70. The shot was a textbook heart/lung, he ran about 50 feet and piled up. I think it is possible to "stop" them with a hot 45 70 load but I acquired this rifle with a lot of factory loads so I don't hop it up at this time.

I think the short barreled rifles and shotguns may be difficult to handle, hard to be accurate with beyond 10 feet, and those pistol cartridges you mentioned lose a lot of power in a short barrel.

I take it this is a backcountry "just in case" item. Accordingly if you already have a short barreled 12g shotgun use that with buck shot at about 10 feet.

 

[MRP]

I've harvested a lot of bears over the years. Either shot them or seen them shot with a lot of cartridges. I'll share a few points that I think are important for your inquiry.

Bears are not hard to kill, but sometimes it seems to take about a minute after they have been fatally shot to stop moving.

Shot placement is very important. There are two very popular schools of thought on where to shoot. One is to shoot the lungs/heart and the other is to bust their shoulders so they cannot move too fast and then you can finish them. I am not going to debate this with anyone but I am a disciple of the fatal shot and they die in a minute or so.

Bear killing and bear stopping are two very different things. None of the cartridges you have mentioned will reliably stop a bear, all of them will kill a bear. As a couple of other posters have mentioned bear stopping starts around 40+ caliber, 400 grains and 2400fps. My stopping cartridge was a 416 Rigby loaded with 120 grains of H4831sc topped with a 400grain Swift AFrame. Others will have their favourites, IIRC it was a little over 2600 at the muzzle and it kicked viciously - but I have never before or after seen anything lay a bear down that reliably.

Bear killing...practically that would start around 30 30 power and go on up.

I killed a bear that walked in my summer cabin one year with my old 45 70. The shot was a textbook heart/lung, he ran about 50 feet and piled up. I think it is possible to "stop" them with a hot 45 70 load but I acquired this rifle with a lot of factory loads so I don't hop it up at this time.

I think the short barreled rifles and shotguns may be difficult to handle, hard to be accurate with beyond 10 feet, and those pistol cartridges you mentioned lose a lot of power in a short barrel.

I take it this is a backcountry "just in case" item. Accordingly if you already have a short barreled 12g shotgun use that with buck shot at about 10 feet.

If they are not hard to kill why are you using a 416, I knew a rancher ( long dead now) shot dozens of bears with a 243 in a savage 99. 308 and 3006 has always been more than enough for me.

30-30 and up, under 150yds, that is a .44

Short barrel rifle, .44 or 12g, not accurate past 10 feet? Get real, you have obviously never shot one! So at that rate pistols are only good for 5 feet. There are thousands of guys that can put a hole in your silly unknowledgeable thinking. My 12" .44 is accurate enough at 100yds.