Best polymer .45 ACP?

[capp325]

being light weight is almost of the most importance after reliability which is number one. If I survive my situation of a downed aircraft I will gladly by a new one.

I could try to argue for a 10 mm but a 45 acp will leave a bigger hole every single time.

No offense, but it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about. If the "size of the hole" was the only thing that mattered, rifles would be pretty much useless.

In the real world, .45ACP is a poor choice for wilderness carry due to its low velocity. It doesn't matter how big of a hole it can theoretically make if it can't penetrate deep enough to strike vital organs. 10 mm would be a much better choice, though still not as good as the more powerful revolver calibers.

 

[GunGuy34]

No offense, but it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about. If the "size of the hole" was the only thing that mattered, rifles would be pretty much useless.

In the real world, .45ACP is a poor choice for wilderness carry due to its low velocity and poor penetration. 10 mm would be a much better choice.

Agreed, for a Grizzley you need penetration, to get through that thick muscle and head. Glock 20 then! If you can find some ammo

 

[MrSchultz]

No offense, but it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about. If the "size of the hole" was the only thing that mattered, rifles would be pretty much useless.

In the real world, .45ACP is a poor choice for wilderness carry due to its low velocity. It doesn't matter how big of a hole it can theoretically make if it can't penetrate deep enough to strike vital organs. 10 mm would be a much better choice, though still not as good as the more powerful revolver calibers.

Exactly. you want something that can penetrate and make serious damage, a 45acp works fine for humans, but for bears you want some power.

10mm is an amazing cartridge, but I would still go for the 460v (because I don't mind the weight)

 

[trekstor]

well, only way to kill a polar is to shot it in the skull and damage the brain. Either wise I will be killed and the bear will bleed to death a few hours later. We are trained to aim for the brain and spine. Nothing else. Not worth trying to aim for heart or other parts.

The thick fat and fur will stop even a .44 mag.

,44 mag at 10 yards from a revolver = energy of a ,44 mag from a rifle at 250 yards.

Any rifle will out perform a pistol.

Even if I miss and hit the eye, now I got a pissed of blind bear. I got a loony size target to hit between the eyes that is running at 10 feet per second, while I am s**tting my self. Well that is the reality, with a .44 mag I got a poker card size target between the eyes.

If you guys don't mind showing me ballistics to prove a 10 mm over 45 acp in my case I will gladly go for it. It is the case of 45 acp making a bigger hole. I need to argue 10 mm being better. penetration is a start I guess. ( taking notes )

I know .45 acp will kill black bears because I seen local police take them out with a few shots when they intrude into the city.

 

[mlehtovaara]

OK I didn't even see anything about wilderness carry.

.45 ACP for bear protection?

.44 mag is minimum in my opinion.

I would be going with a Ruger Super Redhawk, chopped to 4 1/2 inches, in 454 Casull, or .44 magnum/45 colt if you are willing to play with some hot handloads!

Last I heard the CFO's won't even approve a semi auto for an ATC anyhow. Especially not a .45 ACP. It is a slow moving large projectile that would lack the penetration needed to effectively stop a bear in one shot, even a blackbear.

 

[mlehtovaara]

10mm Ballistic performance:

Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
150 gr (9.7 g) Nosler JHP 1,475 ft/s (450 m/s) 725 ft·lbf (983 J)
165 gr (10.7 g) Golden Saber 1,425 ft/s (434 m/s) 744 ft·lbf (1,009 J)
180 gr (12 g) Hornady XTP 1,350 ft/s (410 m/s) 728 ft·lbf (987 J)
200 gr (13 g) WFNGC HC 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s) 750 ft·lbf (1,020 J)
230 gr (15 g) WFNGC HC 1,120 ft/s (340 m/s) 641 ft·lbf (869 J)

.45 ACP Ballistic performance:

Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
165 gr (10.7 g) Federal Premium 1,060 ft/s (320 m/s) 412 ft·lbf (559 J)
185 GR [2] Bonded Defense 1,225 ft/s (373 m/s) 616 ft·lbf (835 J)
200 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP +P 1,080 ft/s (330 m/s) 518 ft·lbf (702 J)
230 gr (15 g) Federal Hydra-Shok 900 ft/s (270 m/s) 414 ft·lbf (561 J)

Quite a big difference in velocity and ft-lbs of energy!

 

[B]

I'd also recommend a Glock 21sf, or better yet a G20sf.

 

[mlehtovaara]

Now comparing with the big boys! (IMHO a S&W 460 is too heavy and large to carry even the 5 inch and follow up shots are non existent)

44 magnum Ballistic performance:

Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
200 gr (13 g) XPB Lead Free 1,625 ft/s (495 m/s) 1,173 ft·lbf (1,590 J)
225 gr (14.6 g) XPB Lead Fre 1,500 ft/s (460 m/s) 1,124 ft·lbf (1,524 J)
240 gr (16 g) Bonded JSP* 1,500 ft/s (460 m/s) 1,200 ft·lbf (1,600 J)
320 gr (21 g) WFNGC HC* 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s) 1,201 ft·lbf (1,628 J)
340 gr (22 g) LFN +P+ 1,325 ft/s (404 m/s) 1,533 ft·lbf (2,078 J)

.454 Casull Ballistic performance:

Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
240 gr (16 g) XTP JHP 1,900 ft/s (580 m/s) 1,923 ft·lbf (2,607 J)
300 gr (19 g) XTP JHP 1,650 ft/s (500 m/s) 1,814 ft·lbf (2,459 J)
335 gr (21.7 g) WFNGC HC 1,600 ft/s (490 m/s) 1,904 ft·lbf (2,581 J)
360 gr (23 g) WFNGC HC 1,500 ft/s (460 m/s) 1,800 ft·lbf (2,400 J)
400 gr (26 g) WFNGC HC 1,400 ft/s (430 m/s) 1,741 ft·lbf (2,360 J)

And the clear winner is??????????????????

Like I said I would have a chopped Ruger SRH in .454 Casull on my hip.

The key would be all the practice to make sure you can get off a couple accurate shots in quick succession, under pressure.

Have fun with your .45 ACP.

 

[capp325]

I know .45 acp will kill black bears because I seen local police take them out with a few shots when they intrude into the city.

Where in Canada do police officers carry .45ACP pistols? And more importantly, where in Canada do police officers shoot stray bears with their side arms? This thread is getting more bizarre with every post.

 

[mlehtovaara]

Where in Canada do police officers carry .45ACP pistols? And more importantly, where in Canada do police officers shoot stray bears with their side arms? This thread is getting more bizarre with every post.

I believe the RCMP use or have used a Sig 220.

I do agree about this thread getting bizarre though.

Talking about training to kill polar bears, and suggesting .45 ACP as a viable option in the same post is PURE FAIL.

 

[trekstor]

its reality, but you guys fail to read, that a .44 or .357 revolver is to heavy and it is not a option. So I rather be stuck with a .45 then nothing. I know guys guys who took out black bears with .45 ACP and smaller.

I cant carry a full metal frame. I also explained that CFO will approve it under very strict circumstance. I am not asking for your opinions if it is true not.

I am asking about polymer semi automatic pistols for wilderness carry, .45 acp was my choice. I might consider 10 mm.

AND they will approve semi auto like desert eagle in 357 44 or .50.

You have to justify it.

There are only 200 wilderness carry permits in Ontario. Only 15 are pilots. Most pilots have semi autos. Trappers can only get .22 and .22 mags for dispatching the catch. prospectors are stuck with 44 mags and stuff like that. Simple? Who is bazaar?

Do I expect you guys to know anything about wilderness carry? NO. I only asked about opinions on choices I presented. Glock is a very nice suggestion thanks!

Show me 1 polymer firearm that is under 30 ounces that can fire a .44 mag. NONE. I am taking the biggest caliber in a polymer frame and I will take my chances.

Cops in Thunder Bay shot black bears with calibers smaller then .45 like 9 mm. So if you can take out a bear with a 9, 45 will do it.

legally I am not allowed to fire unless the bear is no further than 10 feet. 45 at 10 feet should kill a bear.

 

[enefgee]

The M&P in 45 is a very accurate and lightweight package, it also shoots very softly, make sure the Glocks work for your hand size - it sounds like you won't get a chance to correct your grip if you need to go to the pistol - ten feet means you'll be cleaning drool of your boots.

ETA - personally I'd be packing a Delta Elite 10mm (as an absolute minimum, I'm more of a short shotgun guy when it comes to bears, even an 8 inch 12 ga with pistol grip)

 

[sgt.rock]

Forget all previous suggestions, if you want LIGHT and powerful , all polymer, then look no further than a Hi-Point .45acp or .40 S&W
They are all polymer
They certainly are LIGHT and easy to conceal. Just as light as my Polymer fridge.

 

[MrSchultz]

I'd like to offer you other choices, but you seem to be stuck on 45s.

I would much rather carry around a heavy revolver (but powerful) than take my chances with a 9mm or 45acp.

It would be irresponsible for any of us to tell you that 45acp against a bear, or any other large animal like that, would keep you in the safe zone, that's just ridiculous.

I don't want you to think that I am putting you down or anything, it's really up to you, but for me would be 44mag and up, preferably a revolver - OR - a shotgun.


But, since you did ask for polymer semis, I would say Glock 20 (or 21) if you want the lightest of all guns in that caliber.

In the end, any gun is better than your bear hands

 

[MrSchultz]

Forget all previous suggestions, if you want LIGHT and powerful , all polymer, then look no further than a Hi-Point .45acp or .40 S&W
They are all polymer
They certainly are LIGHT and easy to conceal. Just as light as my Polymer fridge.

Hi-Point? I found that thing quite heavy compared to the Glock 21.

 

[mlehtovaara]

its reality, but you guys fail to read, that a .44 or .357 revolver is to heavy and it is not a option. So I rather be stuck with a .45 then nothing. I know guys guys who took out black bears with .45 ACP and smaller.

There are many here who carry a .44mag revolver and the likes for wilderness carry! Why you cannot I do not understand.

I cant carry a full metal frame. I also explained that CFO will approve it under very strict circumstance. I am not asking for your opinions if it is true not.

Again, why can't you carry a full metal frame?

I am asking about polymer semi automatic pistols for wilderness carry, .45 acp was my choice. I might consider 10 mm.

.45 ACP is not a viable option and the 10mm Glock is. It is also the same size, and practically the same gun with a different mag and barrel. I gave you the ballistic info in plain english yet you still doubt the reasoning behind choosing a 10mm Glock?

AND they will approve semi auto like desert eagle in 357 44 or .50.

You have to justify it.

But didn't you just say you couldn't handle the weight of a revolver? Confusing to say the least.

Regardless the simple reliability of a revolver vs. a semi is a factor more than anything.

There are only 200 wilderness carry permits in Ontario. Only 15 are pilots. Most pilots have semi autos. Trappers can only get .22 and .22 mags for dispatching the catch. prospectors are stuck with 44 mags and stuff like that. Simple? Who is bazaar?

Do I expect you guys to know anything about wilderness carry? NO. I only asked about opinions on choices I presented. Glock is a very nice suggestion thanks!

There are many members here who know quite a bit about wilderness carry, but you better hope they don't find this thread. They might have some interesting things to say about your ideas.

Show me 1 polymer firearm that is under 30 ounces that can fire a .44 mag. NONE. I am taking the biggest caliber in a polymer frame and I will take my chances.

Cops in Thunder Bay shot black bears with calibers smaller then .45 like 9 mm. So if you can take out a bear with a 9, 45 will do it.

Not likely in a life or death attack scenario though! A bear can move quicker than you think. You claim 10 feet a second, but I would think it is more like 10m.

With a bear coming at you at full speed you are lucky to get off 2 shots, nevermind well placed ones. This is why everyone is suggesting the largest calibre possible. You won't get off more than a few shots so a fully loaded mag in a semi auto is not going to help you.

Now if we are talking about Thunder bay and Black bears only it is highly unlikely you will have any dangerous encounters with a black bear anyhow. I have spent a lot of time in the bush plenty far north of thunder bay, and have had countless bear encounters, never having to shoot one, or even feeling that scared.

It is in Southern Ontario where the bears are used to people that I have had issues.

Hell I would be more concerned of getting trampled by a moose than attacked by a bear, and I can guarantee a .45 ACP isn't gonna stop a moose in it's tracks. LOL

legally I am not allowed to fire unless the bear is no further than 10 feet. 45 at 10 feet should kill a bear.

I would not want to bet my life on "should" that is for damn sure!

You say that the CFO will approve your application with a .45 ACP? I highly doubt that, but if it is true I think it highly irresponsible of the CFO to do such a thing. Giving you the idea that a .45 ACP is a good choice for any wild animal defence just is not right.

Do some research on your own and you will find that a 10mm is not ideal, but sufficient, however most experienced guides, who deal with this kind of stuff every day will recommend the largest caliber revolver you can handle.

I don't know why I am even arguing with you or making realistic suggestions, as it seems you have your mind made up.

I guess it has just been awhile since the last serious bear defence thread and I got excited!

Edit: Now I see the hi-point suggestion I take back my previous thoughts, and confirm the Hi-point is the ideal bear defence gun and .45 ACP the right calibre.

God I love bear defence threads!

 

[Canuck44]

No offense, but it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about. If the "size of the hole" was the only thing that mattered, rifles would be pretty much useless.

In the real world, .45ACP is a poor choice for wilderness carry due to its low velocity. It doesn't matter how big of a hole it can theoretically make if it can't penetrate deep enough to strike vital organs. 10 mm would be a much better choice, though still not as good as the more powerful revolver calibers.

Hit a vital organ??? If a bear attacks you either hit his spine or brain or fluke a shot and break a hip. If you don't you are going to be lunched on, most likely, while the bear bleeds out. BTW a Griz heart beats about once every 1 1/2 seconds when he is upset, slower when he is getting ready to eat. You might be chewed on for awhile while he bleeds out.

Most Black Bears aren't much bigger than a large man
so if that is all you might run into the need for a howitzer is just not there. I like the 45-08 cartridge out of my 1911 for bear protection but a shotgun/rifle would be my first choice if weight was not an issue. Whatever you decide make sure you can shoot it fast and accurately. A big boom miss doesn't quite have the same effect as a lessor boom hit.

Take care

Bob

 

[pirate604]

For the model of pistol Glock is the ideal choice, light and there aren't many that will argue with the reliability of Glocks.
As for the caliber choice, I think you really need to look at the merits of the 10mm cartridge. There is a ton of data out there on the internet and in books in regards to the ballistic and penetration quality's vs. the .45ACP.
I don't under stand why you are so set on the .45 and seem to have no interest in giving the 10mm a chance. The few mm difference in the size of the hole is not going to matter as much as the depth of penetration.

 

[trekstor]

like I said I am totally willing to give the 10 mm a chance. Besides the glock 20 are there any other polymer pistols that shoot 10 mm?

mlehtovaara, I don't like making conversation with you. You fail to read my replies. Cops in Thunder Bay dispatch about 40 black bears a year because they get to close to people. Last time I heard it from the man who did it him self with a standard duty issued pistol. I can not carry a full frame revolver because it is to heavy and to bulky for me to carry and transport during work. Thats all I need to justify. I very well know a .45 or 10 mm might not take out a bear, and I am not under the illusion it is better then a .44 mag. There is no Pistol in .44 mag I can realistically drag around. I am a pilot, and I know what I can do in my airplane. Thank you but no thank you for telling me how to do my job. I am very limited to how I can store it. And where I can store it. prospectors do not have this same issue. Well the CFO approve my case? Maybe, i will try. Again I rather be stuck with a 45 or 10 mm than leaving my 629 44 mag at home because it is to heavy to take to work.

S&W 629 44.3 oz / 1,255.9 g vs S&W MP45 of 28 oz. almost half the weight.

 

[Eastford]

I love my .45's and I'd like to think that they can take down just about anything, but even me whom can best be described as a .45 "fanboy" knows that there are limitations for the caliber of my choice. I'm sure a .45 can kill a grizzly, but can it kill it fast enough?


http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-05-31/news/27065858_1_grizzly-hiker-park-rangers

This guy fired 9 rounds into a charging grizzly and I guess what saved them was that the bear didn't like the sting from the bullets so it retreated into the bush again where it eventually died. I know, you're hell bent on a .45, but perhaps you really should reconsider a more suitable caliber even though it might not be a .45?

If it was me, I'd probably drop a PM in CGN member Camp Cook's mailbox to pick his brain as he seems to have some experience with handguns for wilderness carry and appears to have had ATC for wilderness carry for a number of years.

This is only some suggestions of course... It's your life... your funeral....