Big Game Calibers - Math vs Experiences?

I recall a test I read many years ago where they shot high velocity light bullets ala .257/.270 or something and heavy bullets ala .45-70 through brush at obscured targets. Both deflected equally, they determined brush busting cartridges were a myth. ....

This would have to be a pretty sophisticated test to show anything conclusive - There are just too many factors at play. All of the "brush busting" tests I've seen (IV8888 and LuckyGunner come to mind) are not even close to controlling for variables in typical field conditions.

If anyone knows of a "good" test of this kind, I'd sure like to hear about it (maybe a topic for another thread?).
 
^ very few of the tests we see on guns or bullets have well thought out controls. Honestly this is where the water as a medium tests shine imo, and they are far from perfect

The moose study is fun, but the range of variation in sample size is insane from a stats perspective

You know as well as I do that the "I'vE nEvEr NeEdEd A sEcOnD sHoT" type people generally haven't killed enough game to fill an apartment style freezer nor are they inordinately endowed with firearm knowledge.

I knew a guy who would always say “ one and done” never shot a big game animal in the fiveish years I knew him. These guys never wound animals or miss either

Met another guy who was really torn up he had to shoot a black tail twice, offhand moving for the second shot with both in the vitals. I told him he should be proud as not a lot of guys can pull off fast accurate follow ups like that
 
Last edited:
IIRC correctly, Seyfried wrote a "Brush Bucking" piece ~20 years ago, the conclusion was that only round balls show any Brush Bucking ability at all.

So maybe guys that hunt thick brush should switch to pumpkin balls. A true 12 gauge ball would weigh 581 grains, I think Canadaammo was inporting Russian pumpkin ball loads, there may still be some floating around. Or load your own.
 
Study kilimanjaro Bell and his elephants. He reliably got into the brain pan through a foot of skull with a particular formula with a 6.5x54 Mannlicher running 159/160 gr solids around 2400 fps or 2000 ft/lbs energy.

Then study the .700 Nitro Express, throwing 3/4" 1000 gr solids around 2000 fps or 9000 ft/lbs and it demonstrated not enough penetration to do the same thing and sometimes only knocked elephants out. Boddington has written about this to help your Google fu.

Then someone took a 416 to Alaska as a 'do all' rifle and learned it just poked holes in goats for very unimpressive performance as compared to a .270 win with a modern expansion type bullet that flattens them like lightning. It's just a good 'extremes' example to help connect the dots on this whole energy debate.

And to further connect the dots there ARE numbers that you CAN use to help better predict one choice over another...but ft/lbs is NOT it. Energy is a useless measure.

So when you break all this down you realize that FOR GAME INTENDED you need appropriate IMPACT VELOCITY, SECTIONAL DENSITY, and BULLET CONSTRUCTION. Those 3 measures are the best way to look at things now.

Yes our sectional density deteriorates at impact as we use expanding bullets so you need to understand the construction aspect to the impact velocity aspect to the game intended. There is a sliding scale between construction type to impact velocity to penetration potentials that you can line up for your goals, distances, and game intended.

Study the bullets first. You can push low SD bullets of rapid controlled expansion really fast and they have terrible penetration, which is good for smaller game explosiveness. You can push high sd rapid controlled expansion bullets at moderate velocities and they penetrate really well. You can push high sd delayed controlled expansion bullets at moderate velocities that will penetrate very deeply and maybe deeper than that same formula at high velocity. You need to look at the bullets and impacts velocities you know, learn those numbers, then you can apply anything new in comparison to that but you'll be doing yourself no good if you use energy in your factoring.

Just to solidify the above, the Mannlicher/Nitro Express elephants example. The formula that explains why the wimpy mannlicher could do the job and the nitro express is a lottery is this. One of them matched impact velocity, sectional density, and construction better...for the game intended. The mannlicher has SD of .328 and 2400 fps launch (impact velocity slightly less of course), and construction was solid which was appropriate for game intended as penetration trumps all else in that game. The nitro express only had .292 SD and 2000 fps launch but with appropriate construction for game intended. So the Nitro Express did not have enough velocity to overcome the lesser SD and proved itself a liability.

When you study this further and further you come to realize why the 6.5's in general are so popular, they have unusually high sd heavy for cal bullets as compared to most of the standards we've always used. You can study the 375 h&h options and why it's considered an African standard, then apply to things here for whatever your goals might be.

Enjoy the process but drop the energy thing. You need 3 other things that need to line up for game intended that are far more important.

I applied this formula and shoot something wildly different now than when I started. Batting 1000 over 5 seasons and 15 animals with something most would consider too small or weak for the job. Most guys just shoot something common and are generally covered if they stay away from the varmint bullets, as most things work most of the time, but truly lack the understanding of it all and could care less to learn it...better things to do. And that's just fine, for us ballistic nerds we find fun in learning about this stuff, just passing it along. ;)
 
Last edited:
Awesome post ^, although I'm pretty sure it's Karamojo Bell...:)

But what a terrific analysis and synopsis! Outstanding presentation, thanks for posting this.

I'm far from being a ballistics nerd...I reload strictly to save money and shoot more. I like to shoot what I like to shoot, and don't know or care if there are "better" cartridge choices, either theoretical or practical. It's a relief to know there are people who are into this stuff who can point me at good bullets to make my choices work on the critters I use them on. :)
 
Awesome post ^, although I'm pretty sure it's Karamojo Bell...:)

But what a terrific analysis and synopsis! Outstanding presentation, thanks for posting this.

I'm far from being a ballistics nerd...I reload strictly to save money and shoot more. I like to shoot what I like to shoot, and don't know or care if there are "better" cartridge choices, either theoretical or practical. It's a relief to know there are people who are into this stuff who can point me at good bullets to make my choices work on the critters I use them on. :)

+1.
 
Study kilimanjaro Bell and his elephants. He reliably got into the brain pan through a foot of skull with a particular formula with a 6.5x54 Mannlicher running 159/160 gr solids around 2400 fps or 2000 ft/lbs energy.

Then study the .700 Nitro Express, throwing 3/4" 1000 gr solids around 2000 fps or 9000 ft/lbs and it demonstrated not enough penetration to do the same thing and sometimes only knocked elephants out. Boddington has written about this to help your Google fu.

Then someone took a 416 to Alaska as a 'do all' rifle and learned it just poked holes in goats for very unimpressive performance as compared to a .270 win with a modern expansion type bullet that flattens them like lightning. It's just a good 'extremes' example to help connect the dots on this whole energy debate.

And to further connect the dots there ARE numbers that you CAN use to help better predict one choice over another...but ft/lbs is NOT it. Energy is a useless measure.

So when you break all this down you realize that FOR GAME INTENDED you need appropriate IMPACT VELOCITY, SECTIONAL DENSITY, and BULLET CONSTRUCTION. Those 3 measures are the best way to look at things now.

Yes our sectional density deteriorates at impact as we use expanding bullets so you need to understand the construction aspect to the impact velocity aspect to the game intended. There is a sliding scale between construction type to impact velocity to penetration potentials that you can line up for your goals, distances, and game intended.

Study the bullets first. You can push low SD bullets of rapid controlled expansion really fast and they have terrible penetration, which is good for smaller game explosiveness. You can push high sd rapid controlled expansion bullets at moderate velocities and they penetrate really well. You can push high sd delayed controlled expansion bullets at moderate velocities that will penetrate very deeply and maybe deeper than that same formula at high velocity. You need to look at the bullets and impacts velocities you know, learn those numbers, then you can apply anything new in comparison to that but you'll be doing yourself no good if you use energy in your factoring.

Just to solidify the above, the Mannlicher/Nitro Express elephants example. The formula that explains why the wimpy mannlicher could do the job and the nitro express is a lottery is this. One of them matched impact velocity, sectional density, and construction better...for the game intended. The mannlicher has SD of .328 and 2400 fps launch (impact velocity slightly less of course), and construction was solid which was appropriate for game intended as penetration trumps all else in that game. The nitro express only had .292 SD and 2000 fps launch but with appropriate construction for game intended. So the Nitro Express did not have enough velocity to overcome the lesser SD and proved itself a liability.

When you study this further and further you come to realize why the 6.5's in general are so popular, they have unusually high sd heavy for cal bullets as compared to most of the standards we've always used. You can study the 375 h&h options and why it's considered an African standard, then apply to things here for whatever your goals might be.

Enjoy the process but drop the energy thing. You need 3 other things that need to line up for game intended that are far more important.

I applied this formula and shoot something wildly different now than when I started. Batting 1000 over 5 seasons and 15 animals with something most would consider too small or weak for the job. Most guys just shoot something common and are generally covered if they stay away from the varmint bullets, as most things work most of the time, but truly lack the understanding of it all and could care less to learn it...better things to do. And that's just fine, for us ballistic nerds we find fun in learning about this stuff, just passing it along. ;)

bell gave up the 6.5 for a reason the 7x57 worked better with his mauser and he was able to find ammo ... the best cartridge in the world with no ammo is useless ...
 
Bullet placement is what matters most. Their other factors penetration and expansion matter with some calibers while not so much with others.

A .223 with the right bullet(not a varmint type)will kill a deer no problem if it’s put in the heat and lungs same goes for most pistol calibers(.357 mag .44 mag .45 colt .44-40). .30-30 and .303 British have taken a lot of game here and still continue to do so theirs few older calibers that some would thumb their nose at that still work. When you get into the the .44 caliber and bigger rifles expansion isn’t needed as much something like a hard cast bullet works well in .444 Marlin .45-70 and .458 win mag.

Lots of big game have also fallen to muzzleloaders I’d say .40 cal minimum for deer and .50 minimum for everything else when it comes to traditional muzzleloaders.

Bows and crossbows can’t be lumped into this they don’t kill by energy transfer they kill by cutting vital organs and tissues.
 
Always have to assume that we all know that there's no replacement for placement in these discussions, then we can carry on nerding out on the ballistics stuff, terminal in this case.
 
bell gave up the 6.5 for a reason the 7x57 worked better with his mauser and he was able to find ammo ... the best cartridge in the world with no ammo is useless ...

run the numbers on the 7x57...same formula, I just used the 6.5x54 as the extreme comparisons make the point a little better, it wasn't the cartridge so much from recollection but the rifle or ammo supply he wanted and or limited him to move to the 7, which also had a tiny fraction of the 'energy' the nitro express had
 
Awesome post ^, although I'm pretty sure it's Karamojo Bell...:)

But what a terrific analysis and synopsis! Outstanding presentation, thanks for posting this.

I'm far from being a ballistics nerd...I reload strictly to save money and shoot more. I like to shoot what I like to shoot, and don't know or care if there are "better" cartridge choices, either theoretical or practical. It's a relief to know there are people who are into this stuff who can point me at good bullets to make my choices work on the critters I use them on. :)

lmfao, this getting old can sure be entertaining :)
 
luckily some calibers and some bullets were not used by bell ...

oh I'm sure he threw everything at the wall to see what would stick, kinda how it was done back then, so he inadvertently figured out what we now can put numbers to and use for future planning

maybe another easy way for the crowd to visualize this, what would you rather get hit in the chest with...a sledgehammer or a spear? assume same weight and same impact velocity? do you think you'd survive one more likely than the other? you bet, we'd all take the hammer, it's SD is awful and there isn't enough impact velocity to make it penetrate, but the spear SD is through the roof, it's going to also go right through you and the parts that keep you breathing, the energy being identical in this equation (useless number and meant nothing)

like hitting an elephant with the land cruiser, probably 100,000' ft/lbs energy or more and the elephant turns around unscathed and stomps you and your land cruiser into a grease spot...not enough SD for the impact velocity, so no penetration lol, energy figure was useless again

you need to get that frontal area down small enough for the weight of the projectile and matching impact velocity to drive it as deep as you need it to go
 
When you study this further and further you come to realize why the 6.5's in general are so popular, they have unusually high sd heavy for cal bullets as compared to most of the standards we've always used. You can study the 375 h&h options and why it's considered an African standard, then apply to things here for whatever your goals might be.

6.5s are popular because they don't recoil much and there are a gigahillion bullets available in that diameter, many being heavy for caliber. The caliber doesn't make it effective, nor does the SD because SD doesn't factor in bullet construction. A 180gr 30 caliber Partition will lodge under the hide of a moose at 300 yards when launched from a 300 Winchester and has a lower SD than the 6.5 140gr. I'm doubtful that you'd get similar performance out of even a fast 6.5 at half that distance. There's a venn diagram of speed, SD, and construction that needs to be balanced.
 
run the numbers on the 7x57...same formula, I just used the 6.5x54 as the extreme comparisons make the point a little better, it wasn't the cartridge so much from recollection but the rifle or ammo supply he wanted and or limited him to move to the 7, which also had a tiny fraction of the 'energy' the nitro express had

i ve been among elephants and trust me we had 460 wea for a reason. the tools used by poachers including bell are different and he never told us how many never recovered ...
 
6.5s are popular because they don't recoil much and there are a gigahillion bullets available in that diameter, many being heavy for caliber. The caliber doesn't make it effective, nor does the SD because SD doesn't factor in bullet construction. A 180gr 30 caliber Partition will lodge under the hide of a moose at 300 yards when launched from a 300 Winchester and has a lower SD than the 6.5 140gr. I'm doubtful that you'd get similar performance out of even a fast 6.5 at half that distance. There's a venn diagram of speed, SD, and construction that needs to be balanced.

Truth. No diameter is magic anywhere from 6mm to .375 they’re all rather arbitrary, some have better selections of quality projectiles and factory ammo however which is important. Some combinations of all the factors can increase the likelihood of magic, and are easier to find in some bores and chamberings.

Gather every factor, and little mystery you find the rather famous do alls over represented…. Good bullets with enough speed, enough SD, and light enough recoil for Joe Hunter to place them right don’t really care what shape brass tube they departed from, or what diameter they are. Some chamberings just make assembling that recipe much easier. The .300s certainly are one of them.
 
Back
Top Bottom