BLR in .358 Winchester - I think I need one!

If you end up by getting a Browning BLR 81, I woud recommend looking at their special edition in stainless/laminate with nickel plated receiver.

I have included a picture of mine in 358 bought last year at LeBaron in Ottawa. They had two at that time, this one in 358 and a second one in 450 Marlin.

Duke1

http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blr81stainless002gd7.jpg

Just click on the picture to enlarge it
 
powder burner said:
Just some quick questions, what is the recoil of a .358 BLR comparable to? Is it similar to a 30-06?
First, measurement of actual recoil values is pretty simple. All you need to know is rifle weight, bullet weight, weight of ejecta (powder charge, wads, etc), and muzzle velocity. That can be used to give you measurements of recoil in ft/lbs, recoil velocity, pounds feet, etc - whatever you want.

However, recoil as we feel it probably relates more to subjective effects than hard physics. A really crappy, poorly fitted stock in a supposedly light recoiling rifle can hurt you a lot more than a supposed hard recoiling rifle in a well fitted and designed stock.

Having said that, bullet weight for bullet weight, and velocity for velocity, a .358 rifle is going to have lower physical recoil values than a rifle of smaller bore diameter, be it 7mm, .30, or whatever. The reason for that is the greater expansion ratio advantage that the larger caliber has.

Using the 30/06 you asked about however, here's a rough comparison using loads straight out of a reloading manuals - different rifles give different velocities with the same loads, of course.
  • It takes about 44 grains of powder to get 2830 fps with a 180 grain bullet in a .358 Winchester
  • It takes about 59 grains of powder to get 2800 fps out of a 30-06.
  • It takes about 71 grains of powder to get 2820 fps out of a 300 Win Mag.

Now, to translate that into recoil values using an 8 lb. rifle:
  • The .358 Winchester will generate about 20.6 ft/lbs of recoil energy and a recoil velocity of 12.9 fps
  • The 30/06 will generate 24.2 ft/lbs of recoil energy and 14 fps of recoil velocity
  • The .300 Winchester Magnum will generate 28 ft/lbs of recoil energy and 15 fps of recoil velocity
So - speaking simply about pure physical recoil values and not about rifle fit, rifle weight, etc - all else being equal, a .358 is going to recoil a lot less than a smaller caliber moving the same weight bullet at the same velocity.

Just one of the reasons why I think the .358 is an excellent starter (and lifetime) rifle for new shooters, kids, wives, etc. Not only less recoil for equivilent bullet weights and speeds, but the wide variety of available loads (see below) mean it can emulate just about any load you might need.

What bullet weights are offered for them?
Well, this is just some of what I load...

358Win.jpg


The one real weakness of the .358 Winchester is that the factory load - and I think there's only one - is anemic at best. It's in the graphic above for comparison purposes only. You need to handload to make it live up to its' potential.

My BLR (actually, it's the wife's gun as I had it built for her) gets 2930 fps with the Barnes 180 gr. X bullet. You won't get anything like that with a 30-06 and nobody says an '06 with 180 grain bullets is inadequate - or that it's just a "bush rifle" for that matter. And a 200 gr. bullet at 2750 fps is more than enough for anything except perhaps really big stuff that's already too close. For close range authority, the 250 grain bullet will take care of that... but you will find it pushes back with a little more authority as well.

Cast bullet loads don't exactly take a backseat when hunting either, although they don't have the ballistics of the jacketed stuff at the longer ranges:

358CastLoad.jpg


So... what more would you need?
 
SuperCub said:
I've always thought that a 20" Model Seven in 358Win would be pretty much the perfect rifle. :)

"cccan"...are you reading this?...borrow that reamer and lets get to it...;) ...although I won't cut it less than 22"....

actually.....Remington makes one in the Model Seven CDL...:)

oops...that's the supercharged 358...the 350 Rem Mag....sorry...:p
 
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Billy The Kid said:
SuperCub & MadDog are off their meds.........:rolleyes:

Everyone knows that the ultimate 358 is a pre-64 Winchester nodel 70!:cool: :cool: :cool:
No... the ultimate 358 is one built on the old Sako Mannlicher stocked .243 or .308. Nice 'n light 'n handy. And a beautiful rifle as well.

Now all I have to do is find somebody willing to part with one of those short action Sakos so I can rebarrel it.

Failing that... I do have a Husqvarna Husky here in .308 that I could rebarrel. Also classic and also very light. The only reason I haven't done that already is because the thing is so impressively accurate with the Barnes 165 gr. bullets that I just can't bring myself to take the barrel off, even though I just don't have a use for a .308 with the other stuff in the gun safe. I also get a bit of a guilt complex about altering rifles like the old Husqvarnas that are in such good condition.

How's this... I will trade (to a very good home) the Husqvarna in exchange for one of the old Mannlicher stocked Sakos in equivilent condition.
 
When I decided to load this cartridge, I wanted to get as much performance from it that I could safely. That included velocity, accuracy, economy, and ease of loading and obtaining components.
I went with the Sierra 225gr SBT bullet for a variety of reasons.
It is 0.1" shorter than the 250gr Hornady and 0.1" more powder space is quite valuable to a handloader looking for the most out of a cartridge.
I wanted to stay with a minimum sectional density of .250 and the .358 225gr bullets have a SD of .251.
The 225gr Sierra has a high ballistic coefficient and that results in a good trajectory in a bullet that carries more energy further.
The boat-tail bullet is easy to load and Sierra bullets are available most anywhere for reasonable prices.
The 225gr Sierra has not failed to produce a quick humane kill on any Moose or Deer I have hit with it.
My BLR will spit them out at 2550fps(measured) into 1.25"(3 shots).
My Nosler #3 reloading manual lists 49.5gr of IMR 4895 as a max load. Start with less.

The lighter 200gr and 180gr bullets, although adequate, just don't have the 200yd+ downrange punch that the 225gr bullet has.
Most of my shots on game have been under 200yds and several have been in the 250 to 300 yd range.
The whole idea for me to go to the .358 caliber is to use heavier bullets that are not feasible in smaller calibers.

I also load and shoot 35 Whelen and hope to have a .358 Norma Magnum and 35 WSM someday.
My 35-284 is waiting for load development.
So little time!

Good Luck
John
 
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Jeff/1911 said:
Thanks for that Rick - FANTASTIC report! :)
Yer welcome... always like to blow the horn of the .358's. Good thing you hadn't asked me about the .358 Norma Magnum... (yeah, got one of them too...)

I looked again at your original post. Other opinions aside, with the right bullet in handloads - meaning a 180 or 200 grain spitzer - a .358 Winchester is very much a 300 - 350 yard rifle. A drop of 11 inches at 350 yards is still pretty respectable.

The problem, unfortunately, is that .35's aren't prevelant to begin with, and most shooters seem to be sold on the idea that they're either "bush rifles" or primarily intended for purposes that require a lot of bullet weight. Why a 180 grain bullet is considered inadequate for elk and moose, I'm not exactly sure, but most owners of .35's these days seem to be focusing on the 225 and 250 grain offerings. This would make sense to me if they were shooting cast bullets like the one pictured above which I designed - getting better than 2500 fps with a cast bullet is tricky business, so then of course substitute greater weight for the velocity. But otherwise...

At any rate, the supply of 180 grain spitzers in .35 has about dried up. Nosler used to make one, but dropped it. And I just found out Barnes has dropped their very fine 180 grain X-bullet - I just ran down and snatched up the last two boxes on the store shelves. Which means I should be fine to the end of my life if I reserve them for confirming sighters and hunting. I'd advise anyone out there who likes the 180-in-a-.358 notion to snap up any Nosler or Barnes bullets you see out there, because I think it will be a while before they're made again.

However, all is not lost. Barnes still makes the 200 grain .35 bullets - although the "new and improved" Triple Shock line that replaced the plain old X bullets is significantly less ballistically efficient. So a .358 Winchester is still an honest 300 yard hunting rifle - or at least every bit as much a 300 yard rifle as a 30/06 with a 180 grain bullet. 350 yards and I think the drop is getting to be a bit much.

However, while hunters love to muse and discuss the long range shot, there are two realities:
  1. Even in more open country, far more game is shot at under 200 yards than over 200 yards.
  2. Very few hunters have the combination of a rifle capable of shooting beyond 300 yards and the personal skill to be ethically attempting such shots under field conditions.
That's another discussion in itself, of course, but for mixed hunting conditions I don't think I would judge any rifle or caliber for it's ability to deliver at ranges beyond 300 yards. If you're specifically thinking about something like a rifle intended for elevated stand hunting along fencelines on the prairie, then of course you're talking about another matter entirely.

Having said that, if your hunting is going to be overwhelmingly for deer on the prairies with perhaps the odd elk or moose hunt thrown in, then as much as I like the .358 in a short action rifle, my opinion would be to go with the .308. It doesn't take a lot of bullet weight to knock down a deer with authority, and there are lots of really slippery 150 - 165 grain bullets on the market that will make a .308 very flat shooting as far out as most mere mortals are willing to ethically try. More importantly, it will be forgiving of range estimation errors on those prairies. For the occasional elk or moose hunt, the .308 isn't exactly anemic, and a 180 grain Barnes -X at around 2550-2600 fps will do the job very well indeed.

Where I live, I can be hunting everything from grizzly bears, goats and bighorns to whitetails, elk and moose within an hour of town. So my hunting is a pretty even mix and deer are at the low end of the size scale. That's why I like the .35's; if I was primarily a deer hunter, I have no doubt I would have a very different set of preferences.

The advantages of the .35's in general and the .358 Winchester in particular are as follows (in my mind anyways):
  • Expansion ratio makes them more efficient with equivilent bullet weights and generates less recoil for the same velocity.
  • Identical bore to the .357 pistol bullets guarantees a readily available - and inexpensive - supply of bullets for practicing on gophers, tin cans, etc while not wearing the barrel out.
  • Between hunting bullets for handguns and the premium rifle bullets, there is a bullet available that will allow the .358 to emulate everything from a 30-30 to a very serious bear-in-the-alders gun.
  • The .358 is very easy to cast bullets for, and cast bullets in the .358 give up little or nothing to jacketed bullets when the hunting range is 250 yards or less. Cast bullets are ridiculously cheap once you're set up for it, and they put far less wear on your barrel if that's important to you.
  • Assassinating grouse with very quiet shot loads while out elk hunting is not a major issue, but it is nice nonetheless.
So... I guess you probably should think of how your hunting days get split up amongst game, the ranges you would expect to be shooting at most of the time, and how much you want to be shooting with your rifle just for fun.

Of course, there is always the appeal of having a .35 caliber rifle just because most of the unshaven masses DON'T have one... and because you already own a .308 anyways...
 
Rick,

Excellent points all...:)

The more I think about it - the more I figure I may just get a BLR in .308 for now (because I just love em') and keep an eye out for a really nice one in .358 later.

Thanks for all of your feedback. I appreciate it very much.

Best wishes, Jeff.
 
Jeff/1911 said:
Rick,

Excellent points all...:)

The more I think about it - the more I figure I may just get a BLR in .308 for now (because I just love em') and keep an eye out for a really nice one in .358 later.

Thanks for all of your feedback. I appreciate it very much.

Best wishes, Jeff.
No, no, no! You ALREADY have a .308. Now you need something DIFFERENT.
 
Rick,

I agree w/ you...but I have been looking at ammunition and bullets for reloading and I'm having a hard time finding either locally! How about brass?

The .308 would be so simple...:redface:

Jeff.
 
Jeff/1911 said:
Rick,

I agree w/ you...but I have been looking at ammunition and bullets for reloading and I'm having a hard time finding either locally! How about brass?

The .308 would be so simple...:redface:

Jeff.

Run standard .308 through a .358 sizing die. Check OAL case length. Trim if required. There you go... ;)
 
Ditto to Rick and the rest of "us" 358 bore nutz. (Rick started it, mrpike finished it!) I've had a pair of 358 Win's (BLR & custom Rem 600) and got talked out of them in trade for 2 35 Whelens (custom Rem 700 SS/DM & custom Parker hale clip.) May just have to redo one into an improved for the heck of it. At least the 35 has a couple of factory options, but stick a Barnes 225 or a Speer 250 into these girls and there's not much you couldn't cover. Both shoot under 1" in my gun and aren't bad in the recoil dep't. I spotted mrpike a 35 barrel and a Savage 10 Sierra in 300WSM, the end result should be interesting once he gets some spare funds, I believe the Aussie's call it the 35 Sanbar, or a 300wsm necked to 35. 35's are like salted nuts, you can't stop at one!
 
35's are like salted nuts, you can't stop at one!

Oh ya - that's been my experience!

Why just this week when I wasn't looking another 35 followed me home - it's a NIB big green factory fresh special run 7600 carbine in 35 Whelen no less! With that 18 1/2" tube it's a cutie! Now I can run some comparison velocity and accuracy tests with my older 22" barrel length M7600 version. Lotsa 35 cal fun!
 
Jeff/1911 said:
Rick,

I agree w/ you...but I have been looking at ammunition and bullets for reloading and I'm having a hard time finding either locally! How about brass?

The .308 would be so simple...
But you already have a .308...

I don't know where "locally" is. But as you're in Alberta, Wholesale Sports will be more than happy to sell you bags of .358 Winchester brass, 50 to the bag. Of course, since the .358 Winchester is simply a necked up .308 Winchester, you can also just expand the necks of .308 brass and be happy. I'd go with new factory brass myself - the brass will last you a long time and the cost is minimal.

Bullets? I'm sure Wholesale Sports has lots of Barnes bullets; their online catalogue says they still have some boxes of 180 grain Barnes-X bullets. I doubt they do, but you could see. Frankly, I think the Barnes bullet designs are sliding backwards - BC's are decreasing with many of the new models and I doubt their terminal effects are any better than they already were. There's always Remington, Nosler, Speer etc bullets to choose from their catalogue as well. Of course there's always Russell's...

Oh... and let's not forget all the .357 handgun hunting bullets out there...

And if THAT isn't enough... with a .35 you don't need factory bullets to begin with:
358CastLoad.jpg


Raid the reject wheel weight bucket at your local tire store. Cast your own bullets; those bullets are probably really stretching it beyond 250 yards, but a 250 grain bullet like this at around 2500 fps, is in no way handicapped for taking anything that walks this continent.
 
OK. You talked me into it. :) When I was last at Wholesale Sports in Edmonton they didn't seem to have any .35 cal bullets...but I'm sure they'll get more in.

That is a wicked looking cartridge when loaded with those cast bullets! Thanks for all the GREAT pictures Rick.

Yes, I really want a .358 BLR. It will be mine.

Thanks a lot - Jeff.
 
Jeff/1911 said:
OK. You talked me into it. :) When I was last at Wholesale Sports in Edmonton they didn't seem to have any .35 cal bullets...but I'm sure they'll get more in.
Ask them to bring them in for you - or just order them from their online store. Two bags of brass and a couple of boxes of the cheap 180 grain Speers will get you going until you have everything settled in. Then you can pick a good bullet to work up a long term hunting load with.

Everyone seems to have a really good 225 grain bullet, except Sierras, which have a lot of reports of coming apart. Barnes also has the 200 gr. job. Decide what your working ranges will be, look at some reloading manuals, then run the numbers through one of the ballistic calculator programs to see what you're looking at. Except for grumbly bears in the bushes, I think a 200 grainer at around 2750 fps has got more than enough swat for anything out to 300 yards and a bit beyond. However, most .358 Winchester users seem to prefer the 225 and 250 grain loads; they might be right.

As far as the heavy bullets go, personally, if I decided it was going to be a 250 grain day, I'd stick with the cast bullets. Cast or jacketed, 2500 fps is all you're going to get in that weight out of a .358 Win, unless you start really pushing pressures. A cast bullet with that big flat meplat is not going to come apart, it has no jacket to lose, it is going to expand if the alloy is the right hardness, and it will perform every bit as good as a jacketed bullet. Plus, the price is right...

In fact, if I was pretty sure it was unlikely I'd ever be presented with a shot over 250 yards, I'd get a good 250 grain cast bullet mould custom made for my rifle by Mountain Moulds (that's where I got my mould) and call it good. But... you will get more recoil with a 250 grain bullet, no doubt about it. The pistol bullets will always be around for fun and as cheap shooters.

There is a bit of a learning curve as far as how to develop and load cast bullets for hunting - but that's part of the fun, not a handicap (at least for me - I like shooting).

That is a wicked looking cartridge when loaded with those cast bullets! Thanks for all the GREAT pictures Rick.
Well, the looks really have nothing to do with it. For hunting with cast bullets, in any caliber, you want a big flat meplat. You can adjust Brinell hardness to get expansion, but I don't know anyone in the Cast Bullet Association who has had any luck at all with developing moulds and loads that will shoot a cast spitzer at anything above pedestrian speeds. The combination of a big flat meplat, the right alloy, a bigger bore, and decent speeds make .35's and above very lethal killers with cast bullets.

Yes, I really want a .358 BLR. It will be mine.
if you're fussy like me, there is now a problem.

Browning, in their infinite wisdom, has gone to alloy receivers on the latest BLR's.
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=003B&cat_id=034&type_id=006

I guess it does save some weight, but personally, I HATE aluminum alloy on a rifle - unless it is an AR-whatever. It doesn't have the same look as finely blued steel, and wears off and scratches relatively easily. Then your rifle looks like crap and your local gunsmith can't properly refinish the aluminum. Don't even get me started on that ugly pistol grip they put on some of the BLR's - that's a none starter right there.

Of course, if these things appeal to you, you don't mind alloy, you like the weight, etc, then a new-in-the-box BLR will have you good to go.

But if I was in the market for another BLR right now, I would be haunting the gun shows, gun stores, for sale pages here, etc., looking for a late model, straight gripped BLR made prior to the change to aluminum. In .358 if I could find it; in .308 if I couldn't. A .308, of course, would then give me an excuse to have Bill Leeper put a custom Ron Smith barrel on it with a throat specifically cut for my bullet mould - the jacketed bullets won't care either way.

Oh wait... I already did that. So... does anybody want to buy a Model 81 barrel in .308 Winchester; upgrade your .243? Hasn't had a single shot fired through it since leaving the factory and being promptly taken off by Bill.
 
I've found the Sierra 225gr to be an excellent performing bullet and I use it exclusively in my BLR and it has not failed to kill each of the 10 or so Moose and several Deer that I have shot at.
They work very well for me and I see no reason to go to another bullet.
The lighter 200gr and 180gr bullets, although adequate, just don't have the 200yd+ downrange punch that the 225gr bullet has.
Most of my shots on game have been under 200yds and several have been in the 250 to 300 yd range.
The whole idea for me to go to the .358 caliber is to use heavier bullets that are not feasible in smaller calibers.
If you have ever seen a Moose get hit with one of these bullets you'll know it's going to stay down.
I haven't had any difficulty getting brass and bullets locally in Red Deer or in Calgary.
It's been a while since I bought any. I stocked up last time.


Only my experience.
Good Luck
John
 
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Wow. You guys are really something. :) Thank you Rick (and others) for your excellent advice.

Rick,

I don't mind the alloy receiver at all...although I agree the pre-alloy, straight grip BLR is my strong preference.

I'm going to hold out for a .358 I've decided. If I don't find a used one first, I'll be buying a new, current designed one.

Jeff.
 
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