BLR in .358 Winchester - I think I need one!
- Thread starter Jeff/1911
- Start date
Jeff/1911 said:
The all steel 81 was made for many years so there should a lot of used ones around. I bought and sold a 1981 vintage one in 358 last year on GN after I bought the new S/S Laminate one in 358. I can't recall the exact price but it was somewhere between $600 and $700 and in very good condition.
Good luck!
Duke1
You might be interested in this site:
http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/CTGY/C-010
Very useful if you intend to buy a used one.
Duke1
PS. Also this comment on one of the sites:
The original Model 81/BLR's were steel receivers beginning in 1966 thru 1995. When the model designation changed to the 'Lightning BLR' in 1995 this is when Browning made the change to an alloy receiver. You can visit Browning's website (http://www.browning.com/services/dategun/guns/blr.htm) to determine which version of the Model 81/BLR you have and it's year of manufacture. Hope this helps!
http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/CTGY/C-010
Very useful if you intend to buy a used one.
Duke1
PS. Also this comment on one of the sites:
The original Model 81/BLR's were steel receivers beginning in 1966 thru 1995. When the model designation changed to the 'Lightning BLR' in 1995 this is when Browning made the change to an alloy receiver. You can visit Browning's website (http://www.browning.com/services/dategun/guns/blr.htm) to determine which version of the Model 81/BLR you have and it's year of manufacture. Hope this helps!
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Hi John:JohnnyJ said:
Obviously they work for you. I haven't used them myself, but I did run across a lot of comments about Sierra bullets coming apart while I was looking for a replacement light spitzer for the .358's. By way of example, a few comments from Midway's customer feedback line:
In my 35 Whelen accuracy is excellant,5 stars. Consistantly produces three shot groups with bullet holes almost touching at 100 yards. This year,2005 season,I have shot 3 whitetails at ranges from 50 to 100 yards and each time the bullet has fragmented with multiple exit holes. With the boattail design it shoots flatter than expected but the bullet does not hold together as well as I think it should.
This is bullet is superbly accurate producing less than 3/4" groups in two different 35s. It is an excellent bullet for game up to about 300 lbs. If the rating stopped there it would be 5 stars. But the 35 is a large game rifle. Above 300 lbs, shot placement becomes critical. It suffers from the "Sierra syndrome" of jacket separation. You might use it once and be OK, and the next time, sick or worse. If I rated this for heavy game it would be one star. But as long as you understand the limitations, this bullet adds versatility to the 35 caliber bore allowing it's use on smaller game.
I have used this bullet quite a bit in a 35 Whelen. I have taken several kudu, oryx, and other animals 500-700 lbs with it. It is very accurate but is lacking in terminal performance on this size animal. Nearly every bullet recovered suffered core/jacket seperation, especially when contacting large heavy bones. Excellent bullet for animals under 200 lbs however!
etc., etc.,This is bullet is superbly accurate producing less than 3/4" groups in two different 35s. It is an excellent bullet for game up to about 300 lbs. If the rating stopped there it would be 5 stars. But the 35 is a large game rifle. Above 300 lbs, shot placement becomes critical. It suffers from the "Sierra syndrome" of jacket separation. You might use it once and be OK, and the next time, sick or worse. If I rated this for heavy game it would be one star. But as long as you understand the limitations, this bullet adds versatility to the 35 caliber bore allowing it's use on smaller game.
I have used this bullet quite a bit in a 35 Whelen. I have taken several kudu, oryx, and other animals 500-700 lbs with it. It is very accurate but is lacking in terminal performance on this size animal. Nearly every bullet recovered suffered core/jacket seperation, especially when contacting large heavy bones. Excellent bullet for animals under 200 lbs however!
And from one of our member's very own .35 caliber pages, relating to this particular bullet:
I have been getting conflicting reports as to its terminal performance on big game. One source suggests it hangs together through a very large bear (story source comes via Sierra rep). Another source - a gunsmith here in Ontario - says he's shot a truckload of deer, elk and moose with it and it NEVER hangs together. It "vaporizes" in the animal - his word for breaks up and rarely does he get an exit.
So... given conflicting reports like that, my usual reaction is to stick with bullets that universally get the thumbs up for terminal performance and sticking together. Where I hunt, the grumbly bears are never too far away.
Given your experiences with them, I'd be surprised if you did.
Well, I can't agree with that part.
I think we can agree that muzzle velocities accompanied by good accuracy vary from rifle to rifle with any given bullet. With that aside, let's have a look at .358 ballistics over those bullet weights with one line of bullets, using loading manual data and presuming those results would be consistent over the population of .358 Winchester bullets. Let's use 300 yards - because that's much more likely to be the limit of of most responsible hunter's shooting range, rather than 400.
- A 180 grain bullet drops about 14" and has 1630 ft/lbs of energy remaining.
- A 200 gr. bullet drops about 16" and has 1716 ft/lbs of energy remaining.
- A 225 grain bullet drops about 17" and has 1900 ft/lbs of energy remaining.
I have to say I don't think a game animal is going to detect a difference of of 270 ft/lbs of energy, either way. But an extra 3" of drop at 300 yards might be the difference between a bullet in the boiler room and one that drops below the vital zone.
Now, in the real world, I don't think a hunter would be handicapped with any of these bullets - but I don't think they would gain any advantage using one over any of the others either. I prefer the 180 grainers because, all things being equal, they shoot a tiny bit flatter and definitely recoil a lot less than the heavier loads.
If I REALLY wanted maximum thump out of a .358 Winchester, I'd go to the 250 grain bullets - or even heavier. Probably a 300 grain bullet with a massive, flat meplat.
It depends on you...Jeff/1911 said:
It was the very first BLR's that had the ugly, stamped metal magazine. All the rest, right up to the current version, have the almost flush design. That is a preferable design to my mind.
I REALLY dislike aluminum alloy frames on sporting rifles and shotguns. Primarily because I like classic looking firearms, including nice bluing and oil finished stocks. If that kind of stuff doesn't warm your heartstrings and you're equally as happy with matt finished metal, camo painted firearms or whatever, then the alloy frame shouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to you
I find the pistol grip butt to be hideous on some models of the BLR - but again, maybe most people find it to be a thing of beauty.
Ultimately, a BLR .358 Winchester with either kind of receiver, finish, buttstock, etc is still going to be a BLR .358 Winchester. It depends on your personal tastes, and what matters to you and what doesn't. The quality will be the same in all variants.
Of course, if you wanted a REAL rompin', stompin', .358 BLR which would make all the .35 caliber affectionados here whimper and drool, you'd buy a BLR in 30/06 and get it rebarreled in .358 Hawk, which is pretty much the old .358 Browne-Whelen. 3000 fps with a 200 grain bullet, or 2700 fps with a 250 grain bullet is only about 200 fps slower than Thor's Hammer, the .358 Norma Magnum (all bow and genuflect towards Sweden) - and doing so while burning not a hell of a lot more powder than a .358 Winchester and a lot less recoil.
Now THAT sucker throws .35 caliber bullets with lots of authority. Get Bill Leeper or somebody to make one of THOSE up for you... and then watch me drool and ask for pictures.
Rick,
If the 225gr Sierra failed as miserably as you say it did then I will assume that the Whitetail deer and other animals hit with it are still running around the bush.
I figure that when I hit an animal once and it goes down and that happens on a regular basis, then my equipment is not letting me down.
Maybe I've been dreaming about the Moose that I've shot and the regular feeds of Moose meat I've had have been figments of my imagination.
Just my experience.
John
If the 225gr Sierra failed as miserably as you say it did then I will assume that the Whitetail deer and other animals hit with it are still running around the bush.
I figure that when I hit an animal once and it goes down and that happens on a regular basis, then my equipment is not letting me down.
Maybe I've been dreaming about the Moose that I've shot and the regular feeds of Moose meat I've had have been figments of my imagination.
Just my experience.
John
There are three main BLR variants:
1. The original, with the hang-down mag
2. The model 81, with the steel receiver and the flush-mount mag
3. The new guns with aluminum alloy receivers
Yes I am generalizing, I have owned a bunch of variants. My favourite is the Model 81 with steel receiver, it fits me the best and I just like it. One of these in .308 is my main deer gun. I do not prefer the alloy receivers, nor the pistol grip stocks, but have owned guns with both. Heck I still do own a BLR Model 81 Lightweight in .358 Win, with an aluminum alloy receiver (but a staright stock)...........
Whatever floats yer boat..........
Doug
1. The original, with the hang-down mag
2. The model 81, with the steel receiver and the flush-mount mag
3. The new guns with aluminum alloy receivers
Yes I am generalizing, I have owned a bunch of variants. My favourite is the Model 81 with steel receiver, it fits me the best and I just like it. One of these in .308 is my main deer gun. I do not prefer the alloy receivers, nor the pistol grip stocks, but have owned guns with both. Heck I still do own a BLR Model 81 Lightweight in .358 Win, with an aluminum alloy receiver (but a staright stock)...........
Whatever floats yer boat..........
Doug
Again, these are not my experiences. These are what other users of these bullets reported, and I'm not sure why they would have made it up, any more than the gunsmith from Ontario made up his experiences with the bullet when he said they fragmented all the time. After all, I did not make this up.JohnnyJ said:
A bullet fragmenting on a deer might even produce quicker kills than one that sticks together and bores a hole through it. Be that as it may, I do not use bullets that are regularly reported to be fragmenting in ANY of my rifles. I have never read of anyone reporting that Barnes X bullets fragment, nor Bitterroots, A-frames, etc. That's not what I want when the primary targets on the menu are elk, moose, and perhaps grizzly bears.
I choose not to use a bullet with a reputation for fragmenting to see if I get different results. Others may - or may not care whether it fragments or not. Some, like that gunsmith, might even PREFER that a bullet fragment. That's fine; to each his own.
However, there's enough user reports of Sierra's bullet breaking up from various users around the country that I believe that it is happening. My personal choice is not to use bullets that are doing that at times. Your milage, of course, may vary.
Well, perhaps all the other people who have reported bullet fragmentation with this bullet are suffering from hallucinations and flights of imagination? They didn't say it didn't kill animals - they said this Sierra bullet frequently fragments and breaks up. If a person is satisfied that it kills animals and not concerned about the fact the bullet is often reported to break up, then they have no worries, do they? Good for them; their choice, and they're happy with it.
Others - and I suspect I'm not the only one here - don't want anything to do with a bullet which is generating regular reports of the bullets fragmenting on game. For us, this bullet is off the list of choices, no matter how happy somebody else is with it - and I don't care how many moose somebody else has killed with it. I don't want bullet fragmentation in anything other than a varmint bullet - period, end of story.
You have your standards for bullet performance and I have mine. Pretty simple, and nothing wrong with that.
Re.225 SIERRA Game KING
That would be moi so to go on about this quote.
But the paragraph continues to say he still likes using them,
JohnnyJ, you launch em a little slower at 2550MV from your BLR so you may get even more reliable results - and oh yes I almost forgot - you throw stones at the moose until they are at least 300 yards off just to be sporting - right(???). The slower impact velocity may (?????) allow the 225 gameking to hold together. But whatever - it's workin for you as you say (unless you really are dreamin).
Rick, I hunt bears too - not the grumbly kind however. Like you, I'm still more partial to bullets that stay together on entrance and (hopefully) exit - for bruins especially.
Luvs them 35s!
Regards All!
That would be moi so to go on about this quote.
But the paragraph continues to say he still likes using them,
JohnnyJ, you launch em a little slower at 2550MV from your BLR so you may get even more reliable results - and oh yes I almost forgot - you throw stones at the moose until they are at least 300 yards off just to be sporting - right(???). The slower impact velocity may (?????) allow the 225 gameking to hold together. But whatever - it's workin for you as you say (unless you really are dreamin).
Rick, I hunt bears too - not the grumbly kind however. Like you, I'm still more partial to bullets that stay together on entrance and (hopefully) exit - for bruins especially.
Luvs them 35s!
Regards All!
Yup, and the user response on Midway's customer feedback generally indicated that those who found the Sierra's fragmenting were happy enough with them as well.Whelen B said:
The point I was trying to make, however, is that there are a significant number of users reporting that this Sierra bullet is fragmenting in game. My personal preference is that I don't want anything to do with bullets that have a reputation for fragmenting. Some don't care - or even like that effect. Must work for them; no problem - but not what I want.
I think most people would agree that, generally speaking, the slower a bullet is going at impact, the less likely it is to fragment. I guess my issue is: what happens when I poke a moose or a bear at about 15 meters from the muzzle in the alders - and maybe the bullet clips an alder before it gets to fur?
The Ballistic Tips are another bullet that fragments, at least in the 30 calibers. I wrote Nosler about this way back when they first came out after shooting a couple of elk and a deer with them. They said they were aware of it, but they had found them to be great killers nontheless. I still have the letter tucked away somewhere, along with the recovered pieces of bullets. They were right about their effectiveness, and on deer that doesn't make the slightest bit of distance. But that didn't work for me even back then; I think I moved to the Bitterroot bullets and the original Barnes bullets about that time. But, I would use Ballistic Tips again for deerhunting without a second thought; they were superbly accurate.
Sometimes, around here, the grumblies hunt you... it was just a couple of years ago two hunters were killed by grumbly bears here, and the mechanic that works on our vehicles killed a grumbly that charged him at spitting distance just last year. It is not an everyday occurance, but in my opinion it does pay to be prudent and carry enough gun - and bullet.
I have recovered very, very few Barnes bullets in either .30 and particularly in .358 from game. Most have just sizzled right on through, even on quartering shots. Nice big exit holes to let in a lot of air and let out a lot of blood. I have never found evidence of fragmentation on any game animal I have shot with a Barnes, and the bullets I did recover usually weighed almost as much as they did when they came out of the box. Usually within a grain or two... Even the ones I dig out of the clay and gravel bank behind the target stands at the range are usually still in one piece. Bullets that can slam into that stuff and still retain nearly all their original weight are impressive indeed.
Oh yeah... although I am getting another hankering for another .41 caliber rifle, whether that be another 40/65 Maynard in a bubba'd Lee Enfield or one of those .411 Hawks in something else.
And the pistol bullet option would still be open!
Hey Rick,
I built a full stocked Sako in 358 about 20 years ago for a guy in Calgary. Sako action, Shilen barrel, Fajen stock. It was kind of a neat outfit.
BTW, I shot exactly one deer with a 225 Sierra. It went right through but the size of the exit wound ( similar to a baseball) would indicate pretty profound expansion. The shot was at about 35 yd and into the ribs. Muzzle velocity right at 2500. I liked 250s at around 2350 better. I favour bullets with lead in them just because I do. Regards, Bill.
I built a full stocked Sako in 358 about 20 years ago for a guy in Calgary. Sako action, Shilen barrel, Fajen stock. It was kind of a neat outfit.
BTW, I shot exactly one deer with a 225 Sierra. It went right through but the size of the exit wound ( similar to a baseball) would indicate pretty profound expansion. The shot was at about 35 yd and into the ribs. Muzzle velocity right at 2500. I liked 250s at around 2350 better. I favour bullets with lead in them just because I do. Regards, Bill.
Hey Bill!Leeper said:
Well, if I find one of those mannlicher stocked little Sakos, you can build me one as well... or maybe a .411 something or other; getting to be an overabundance of .358's in the house. I don't think I'm exactly at a disadvantage with what I have available already, but something like that with about a 18.5" barrel would point pretty nice for chasing elk in the alders and the black timber up the St. Maries or the Bull.
I thought I had one lined up at the Calgary gun show last year, but there were actually two: one in the longer action, and one in the short. Both in nice shape and both within what I was willing to pay. While I hummed and hawed over which one I wanted, they both got sold and so I ended up with nothing. I did decide that once you got beyond the short action in the Sakos, however, they lost some of their prettiness and started looking more like a canoe paddle. Was also a factory mannlicher stocked Husqvarna at that show; I usually like those rifles, but those ones have a long barrel and the full wood that goes with it makes it start looking like the offspring of one of those old Kentucky long rifles. Not exactly handy...
Lead bullets will be around for a long time. I'll be the first to admit that Barnes bullets can be a real ball-ache. Some of my rifles, I'm always fighting copper fouling in them, and some I have solved by dipping the bullets in a commercial moly dip made for pulp mills. I can't remember if I gave you some of that stuff or not to play around with. Anything it touches is black forever, however - it does stick.
That .358 STA you built for Randy also fouls badly with Barnes bullets; Randy got great results with them and used them for a while, but finally got tired of fighting the fouling. I think he uses 250 grain Speer Grand Slams in it these days.
I do like them, though, as they stick together like crazy.
Somewhat off topic for a moment, do you still have that Cerrosafe cast from that High Power barrel laying around your shop from last weekend? I called Browning and they asked me the dimensions after I related the results. I could remember that groove diameter was .404" and change, but couldn't remember land diameter. Browning said that new out of the box, the accuracy standard for that handgun is 4" at 50 yards, max. I guess it has to go back to the Browning clinic somewhere...
Anyways, back to the BLRs... For the rest of you folks, Bill's the fellow who built my BLR in .358 from a .308; he's a guy you should be talking to Jeff. It wasn't a lot of different work, just a rebarrel to .358 with a chamber cut for cast bullet use. There's a bit on my website about it, but here's the pictures of the setup as my wife uses it. 2x7 Leupold in Warne QD mounts; can be changed to an Ashley ghost ring rear aperture in about one minute. Seems to maintain zero when the scope is remounted - at least, I can't see a difference in the change of impact on paper. And now some pics...
I like it... and my wife loves shooting it with pistol bullets. Works for me...
My son hit a large Sask whitetail buck high in the shoulder/spine last fall with a handloaded 225 Sierra game king at about 2500 fps. Deer was moving (fast!) quartering away, range was about 10 yards.
The bullet did not exit. When I butchered the deer I could follow the bullet path, it entered the steaks just back of the shoulder line, travelled along but above the vertebrae to the spine crest slightly in front of the shoulder where it punched through the spine. I found the jacket on the outside of the spine just before where the bullet penetrated bone. The lead slug was found about 6" further along, inside the spine. I have them but no pics right now.
I have mixed feelings about these results:
1. The deer is dead, dropped on the shot and skidded 10' to a stop and my son had his first mature whitetail buck. He had an itchy trigger finger for his first three years of hunting and shot the first deer he saw with horns. Plus
2. The reason to use a larger bore, for me, is penetration on heavy bone and an exit wound, didnt happen, barely made it into the spine. Minus
3. I was able to cut steaks from the back strap to within 1/2" of the entry wound, couldnt do that with a bullet going 3000fps! Plus
Excellent thread on the 358 guys, keep it up.
Thanks Rick especially, now I think I have to get set up to cast - my wife places a vex on you!
The bullet did not exit. When I butchered the deer I could follow the bullet path, it entered the steaks just back of the shoulder line, travelled along but above the vertebrae to the spine crest slightly in front of the shoulder where it punched through the spine. I found the jacket on the outside of the spine just before where the bullet penetrated bone. The lead slug was found about 6" further along, inside the spine. I have them but no pics right now.
I have mixed feelings about these results:
1. The deer is dead, dropped on the shot and skidded 10' to a stop and my son had his first mature whitetail buck. He had an itchy trigger finger for his first three years of hunting and shot the first deer he saw with horns. Plus
2. The reason to use a larger bore, for me, is penetration on heavy bone and an exit wound, didnt happen, barely made it into the spine. Minus
3. I was able to cut steaks from the back strap to within 1/2" of the entry wound, couldnt do that with a bullet going 3000fps! Plus
Excellent thread on the 358 guys, keep it up.
Thanks Rick especially, now I think I have to get set up to cast - my wife places a vex on you!
Well, go talk to Bill Leeper and get him to build you something we can drool over. My BLR is pretty plain jane, all things considered - it's just set up so it can do a lot of different things.Jeff/1911 said:Rick,
Thank you for those great pictures of that beautiful rifle! No I have something to drool over....
I can think of LOTS of things I could be asking Bill to do for me in a project rifle, if I had the money and time right now. I'm still working on fine tuning that BLR he rebarreled and ditto for a Husqvarna he rebarreled. That was several years ago, but I was away back at school 24/7 for a while and they've just been patiently sitting in the gun safe gathering dust during that time.
Lessee... what could you ask Bill or the gunsmith of your choice to do with a BLR? Let's muse for a bit here...
...well, how about this: get a long action BLR in 30/06, get a Ron Smith barrel in .358 or .411. Rechamber to .358 Hawk or .358 Browne-Whelen (but I might recall that Bill told me once he didn't think much of the Browne Whelen), or .411 Hawk or .400 Whelen; either one will still let you shoot for pocket change all day using pistol bullets, and heavy cast bullets in those calibers are real whackers with a big flat meplat that give away little or nothing to jacketed bullets. Restock the forend to remove the barrel band.
I'll bet you half the guys reading this could also dream up a BLR project in a heartbeat - it's easy to do that when you're spending other people's money! But... love of the custom touch aside, a stock BLR in .358, will serve you just as well.
First off, fair warning: I don't advertise it much because its' creation was a two day experiment from back when I was still doing some work back in the IT industry three or four years ago. Had a client ask me about websites, and as FrontPage was part of Microsoft Office Premium at the time, I spent a weekend teaching myself how how websites work. Spent just enough time to confirm it's easy to make one, but hard to make one with eye appeal that looks good and navigates easily. Anyway, it's got "under construction" stamped all over it. It is fun though, and when I get some time I'm going to get around to adding a lot more content to it.
Anyways, Home page:
http://www.lowe.ca/
My pages:
http://www.lowe.ca/Rick/MainPage.htm
Firearms specific:
http://www.lowe.ca/Rick/Firearms/MainPage.htm
And articles and issues pertinent to firearms legislation:
http://www.lowe.ca/Rick/FirearmsLegislation/MainPage.htm
Final warning... very little has been done on it since that first weekend back in the spring of 2003, so time relevant stuff is probably not up to date.
Anybody good at doing websites?
As long as she is just vexed and you didn't mean hexed.Slapshot said:
Hey... you can always sell it with the line: "But honeybunch, light of my love and stars in my sky, I'm just doing it so I won't be spending so much money on all those expensive jacketed bullets!" Well, it's worth a try...
Anyways, this guy makes custom bullet moulds at astoundingly reasonable prices: http://www.mountainmolds.com I see he now lives just a few hours away (used to be in Pocatello), so might have to drop in and visit sometime. It looks like he's still down while relocating, but he has an online bullet design tool you can play with in the meantime. I find it somewhat frustrating to use as he has put some kind of constraints into it (based on his machining limitations, I guess), but trial and error will get you a bullet design like the one pictured above. He's the guy who cut the mould... Cast Bullet Association members who use his services all speak very highly of the results.
I have some Eagan moulds, but Don Eagan crossed over the bar just a couple of months ago I heard, so that is no longer an option.
Veral Smith is back in the business again. He doesn't accept custom designs anymore, which is too bad, but he does cut his moulds to measurements that you specify to fit your rifle. And, his designs (particularly for hunting) don't leave much to be desired either. I do believe he is the originator of and original cheerleader for the "WFN" bullet design so common for cast bullet hunting in the big handguns and big bore rifles. One of his .35 250 grain WFN offerings would be just the ticket - especially if you ordered the "soft nose" nose mould to go with it. Cast main body hard, ogive area up dead soft. Apparently they do a very impressive job.
Veral's at: http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/lbt/molds.htm
There's also the good old RCBS moulds straight off the shelf; they make a 180, 200, and 250 grain bullet suitable for the .35's. I have the 180 and the 200 and they shoot very well when the cast bullets are tuned to match the .35 they will be used in. I don't pay much attention to factory moulds anymore as most of the custom mould makers will make one to your exact ball seat measurements for almost the same price, and the quality is almost always better.
If you are interested in casting, do yourself a favour and join the Cast Bullet Association: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/ and subscribe to the cast bullet email list. Lots of help available, and there's a few points of knowledge that if you're armed with them beforehand, the path to cranking out high quality cast bullets is one heck of a lot shorter. I flailed around for ten years before the internet came along and pointed me to the CBA and some expert help.
