Calibrating Powder Balance Scale

If you have an inexpensive scale, I would suggest that you make your own verification weight that weighs the same as your load plus the weigh pan.

In the old days, I have used lengths of wire cut to weigh just what I'm after. I've also used pieces of brass with the weight stamped into it.

The real value is that you can alternate back and fourth between the pan and the sample weight and confirm the result is the same after a couple tries.

Sometimes, adding just a few kernels don't register until you remove the pan or bump it.

Balance beam scales are crap for precision at long range. Even the best of them are not very sensitive compared to a good digital balance, but hey, they are affordable and at short range, you would not notice much difference.
 
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Balance beam scales are crap for precision at long range. Even the best of them are not very sensitive compared to a good digital balance, but hey, they are affordable and at short range, you would not notice much difference.

Maybe I can learn something. On my balance scale, I can see the needle move if I trickle on one granule of powder - H4350, Varget, etc. How can a digital scale read more accurately than that, or does precision long range require cutting granules in pieces and then metering them out?
 
On my 5-0-5, I can tell by the needle position if I need 1,2 or 3 kernels of RL22 or H4350, when I'm really close I tweezer in a smaller kernel, off the pile on my table. Having said that I sure could use an FX120i
 
On my balance scale, I can see the needle move if I trickle on one granule of powder - H4350, Varget, etc.

Same here ...... I have total confidence in my old Hornady/Pacific beamer.

Qw9uHNZl.jpg
 
Balance beam scales are crap for precision at long range. Even the best of them are not very sensitive compared to a good digital balance, but hey, they are affordable and at short range, you would not notice much difference.

LOL ....... Guess again!
 
If you have an inexpensive scale, I would suggest that you make your own verification weight that weighs the same as your load plus the weigh pan.

In the old days, I have used lengths of wire cut to weigh just what I'm after. I've also used pieces of brass with the weight stamped into it.

The real value is that you can alternate back and fourth between the pan and the sample weight and confirm the result is the same after a couple tries.

Sometimes, adding just a few kernels don't register until you remove the pan or bump it.

Balance beam scales are crap for precision at long range. Even the best of them are not very sensitive compared to a good digital balance, but hey, they are affordable and at short range, you would not notice much difference.

Does your digital register if you breath on it? I know my beam will.. I know my cheap digital didnt. That suppose to have +/- .001 g accuracy.
 
Hornady/Pacific scale leveled and set on zero. Pan empty.


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Added 2 (two) kernels of IMR-4350.


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I'm pretty sure that's accurate enough for even the uber long range magicians. :cool:
 
Same here ...... I have total confidence in my old Hornady/Pacific beamer.

Qw9uHNZl.jpg

That is too funny - below is a picture of my set-up - I did run a tap into end of that Hornady trickler tube to get a thread inside like was on my RCBS trickler that my brother has now, and I did get a hockey puck from my grandson to add weight and height to it. Otherways, I think there are more or less two of us...

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That is too funny - below is a picture of my set-up - I did run a tap into end of that Hornady trickler tube to get a thread inside like was on my RCBS trickler that my brother has now, and I did get a hockey puck from my grandson to add weight and height to it. Otherways, I think there are more or less two of us...

That hilarious! :) ...... You got the better idea with the hockey puck though. Mine is just a pc of plywood. Yours will work much better. Looking for puck now.

It's been a great scale and didn't cost a lot of money.
 
LOL ....... Guess again!

I'll second that analysis.

I've only had a few balance beam scales as well as only a few digital scales on my reloading bench over the last 50 years. I have no doubt there's more than a few here who have more hands on experience than I have. And probably a few that have years of working with scales in labs.

However, that said, I think that there are probably very few reloading here where tenth of a grain accuracy actually does affect their rifle's performance at the ranges and for the purposes that they use it for.

I also think that there's more user induced weighing error than scale error for both kinds of scales. By a long shot, for both kinds of scales.

That includes metal and electromagnetic influences around the scale being used, whether or not the scale is actually on a flat surface, is it running on batteries or plugged into house current if it's one of the lower end digital scales, etc. And digital scales can drift (hysterises? Some electrician/instrument basher help me here); my Dillon now drifts like crazy.

Whether powered by batteries or plugged into the electrical recepticle beside your bench, I doubt any of the relatively inexpensive electronic scales have a regulated internal power supply inside them that can deal with changes in voltage, temperature, etc. I tried plugging my Dillon into a computer UPS, thinking it might be a fluctuating power supply problem; no luck.

But on the other hand, balance beam anvils where the beam pivot edges sit get filled with guck, or worse, damaged, and users look at the pointer/line alignment from a slightly different point each time.

With both types of scales, as a general rule, the more you pay for your scale, the better precision and repeatability you get in return. There's the enclosed electronic scales some prominent F-classers show on ScrewTube, while other ScrewTube videos show the work of guys to tune balance beam scales to high degrees of precision who prefer that. Whether the precision outcome in weighing charges actually improves your score, your hunting, etc.... that's up to the guy who paid for the scale to determine.

If there's good news in this for all, it's that many who think they have a problem can probably fix all or nearly all by simply correcting user errors and eliminating conditions that can affect the scale accurately and repeatedly doing it's job. Eliminating potential stray electromagnetic fields/bad ballasts, fluctuating electrical current for electrical scales, temperature changes, not having your eye on the same horizontal plane as the beam indicator and the scale's zero line, sitting on a tilted work surface, accumulated dirt built up in the scale's anvils where the beam's blades sit, etc.

Most (but not all) obsessing over their scale reminds me of my anguished cries the first time I used my brand new borescope to look down my barrels. I didn't realize what junk I was shooting while we were shooting gophers with our varmint rifles down in eastern Montana. Couldn't understand how I could hit anything with a sewer pipe like that screwed on the action. I recovered... with time.

If I was really worried, I'd weigh a light object ten times, a heavy object ten times, and an object about the same weight as my favorite load ten times. Do the results show repeatability of reading throughout the weight range? If you're really obsessed, repeat the test on different days when the house temperature is different.

Is +/- 0.2 gr. a real problem for you? RCBS says my scale is +/-0.1 grain accurate; if it's way out of whack to the point of +/- 0.2 grain, is all lost?

To me, it looks like it gets lost in the other variables on reloading benches: differences in case capacity between the individual cases being loaded, different neck tension when using unannealed brass, a new lot of powder or primers, bullet runout, etc. Maybe the humidity that day in the room where I reload for all that I know.

I did burn up a lot of powder and bullets in a pretty accurate varmint rifle I had, shooting ten shot groups at 300 yards as I varied charges up and down a tenth of a grain, and then groups that were mixed loads that were either plus or minus a tenth of a grain.

No difference between any of them on the targets. But to be fair, that was just one rifle, using just one load that happened to be the most accurate rifle I had at the time. Somebody else's rifle, particularly something like a purpose built benchrest or F-Class rifle, a different powder, perhaps the difference would have been night and day.

And as we're all reloaders used to experimenting... how hard can it be to do repeatability tests on our scales, followed by determining whether .1 or .2 grain differences both ways make a difference?
 
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If there's good news in this for all, it's that many who think they have a problem can probably fix all or nearly all by simply correcting user errors and eliminating conditions that can affect the scale accurately and repeatedly doing it's job. Eliminating potential stray electromagnetic fields/bad ballasts, fluctuating electrical current for electrical scales, temperature changes, not having your eye on the same horizontal plane as the beam indicator and the scale's zero line, sitting on a tilted work surface, accumulated dirt built up in the scale's anvils where the beam's blades sit, etc.
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Comes from long ago, when all that we had was analog scales with a needle on our electrical meters - always made with a mirror in behind the needle - the reason was, if you would see the needle and it's reflection, you were not reading "square" to that analog dial face and likely taking an inaccurate reading from the scale - was "parallax error", I think - you only got a "true" reading, when the needle covered its own reflection. Was found on very expensive bench test quality meters, on down to the $9.99 multimeter from Canadian Tire, that still bounces around in a tool box.
 
Does your digital register if you breath on it? I know my beam will.. I know my cheap digital didnt. That suppose to have +/- .001 g accuracy.

Absolutely... I can cut a kernel of Varget in 5 pieces and it will reliably display each 5th on the scale.

I can weight the ink used on a piece of paper to sign your name.

Hey, if you want to use a beam scale go ahead, but 2 kernels of powder is 30 FPS worth of deviation. For me, that is not acceptable on a 1/2 MOA V Bull at 1000 yards.

Now you will argue so figures about low ES tests right... well there is a point where the load is testing the chronograph, not the other way around.
 
Absolutely... I can cut a kernel of Varget in 5 pieces and it will reliably display each 5th on the scale.

I can weight the ink used on a piece of paper to sign your name.

Hey, if you want to use a beam scale go ahead, but 2 kernels of powder is 30 FPS worth of deviation. For me, that is not acceptable on a 1/2 MOA V Bull at 1000 yards.

Now you will argue so figures about low ES tests right... well there is a point where the load is testing the chronograph, not the other way around.

We both said our 2 cents, and now we can move on.
 
Absolutely... I can cut a kernel of Varget in 5 pieces and it will reliably display each 5th on the scale.

How does one cut a kernel of Varget into 5 pcs? Have you actually done this?

I can weight the ink used on a piece of paper to sign your name.

If you've done this, you are truly uber. :)

Hey, if you want to use a beam scale go ahead, but 2 kernels of powder is 30 FPS worth of deviation.

30fps deviation can be attributed to any number of things. Outside temp. Variations from one component to the next in bullets, powder or primers. Varying neck tension. A different lot of brass etc etc etc and yet you attribute it to 2 more (or 2 less) kernels of powder. More uber here as well. :)
 
Unless you have a really good scale to measure the accuracy of whatever you use, you really don't know how accurate what you have really is.
 
Unless you have a really good scale to measure the accuracy of whatever you use, you really don't know how accurate what you have really is.

I am more concerned with the repeatability of my beam scale than the accuracy.
If one uses the same scale all the time and has loads developped with this scale then imo it does not matter if the real/actual weight is off by a little bit.

but I'm not a 1000 yard precision shooter :)
 
or does precision long range require cutting granules in pieces and then metering them out?
No. No it does not. Myself and several LR shooting buds have all gone to mostly thrown loads now. Forget the scale. <gasp> Single digit SDs aren’t that hard to get with the right combination of componenents and techniques.
 
There is long range shooting, and then there is precision long range shooting.

Powder charge variation is relative to a few points. One is case capacity. Obviously if you are putting 60 grains of powder into your case a 1/10 th grain variation is the same percentage of variability as 1/20 th of a grain weight variation with 30 grains of powder. So smaller cases require better load precision that larger to get the same result.

The effect of powder charge variation increases with distance.

It can be difficult to discern verticals from velocity spreads from environmental factors that cause verticals. These are two distinctly different factors and the existence of one that you cannot control does not negate the value of reducing variability in something you can control.

To suggest that powder charge variation is meaningless and you can pretty much use an ice cream scoop is absurd. Where does the drift to the lowest possible rung end? Why do bottom dwellers insist that the absence of proper diligence is somehow a benefit?

Variables stack. If you cant detect the effects of stacked variables, it does not mean they don't stack. There is simply something weak about how you assess the performance or that your expectations are low enough that it meets your minimum requirement. That does not mean everyone shares that minimum requirement. The flip side to that is that not everyone needs to load for the highest performance possible either.

So I'm not being critical if you are pleased with a beam scale. If that's good enough for you, great. Doesn't mean its good enough for everyone.
 
To suggest that powder charge variation is meaningless and you can pretty much use an ice cream scoop is absurd.

What's absurd is to suggest that people shooting precision events like benchrest and charge their cases by volume are doing it with the ol' kitchen ice cream scoop instead of weighing them with the kitchen scale that's in the kitchen right beside the ice cream scoop instead.

See what I did there?

So I'm not being critical if you are pleased with a beam scale. If that's good enough for you, great. Doesn't mean its good enough for everyone.

There are a few guys out there who will tune your RCBS, Redding, Lyman, etc beam scale for less money into it than the spendy enclosed digital scales. If a tuned beam scale that is accurate enough to detect the difference of a single grain of Varget in the pan over a wide range of charge weights isn't accurate enough and repeatable enough for somebody, what is?

Skip to the 6:48 point in the video to see the results after tuning:


That isn't your garden variety balance beam scale. But then, the enclosed electronic scale systems used by F-Classers like Eric Cortina aren't your garden variety electronic scale setups either.

There are very few absolutes in reloading that pronouncements can be made about. Charge weighing methods and equipment isn't one of them.

I have no idea what is going on in benchrest competition these days. But many, many, many benchrest matches have been won and records set with ammunition where the cases were charged by volume, not be weight. That's a game where the issue is often settled by a thou of an inch or so. If weighing instead of charging by volume would tighten up the grouping ability of a benchrest rifle, they would have been won with ammunition where the charges were weighed. Back in the 70's and 80's, Before Internet and before many current F-Class competitors ever owned a rifle, several of the NRA and other magazines had lots of really good technical articles. There were a few articles examining whether or not weighing charges or charging by volume provided more accuracy out of bolt guns at 1,000 yards. No discernible difference. More variation out of differences in case selection, annealing, etc. Technology has increased, of course.

And then there's the presumption that the least variance of weight with the charges in the cases is more important than the least variance of volume with the charges in the cases.

This is not a new topic of discussion/debate. A fast Duck Duck Go search (because all things Google are evil; don't feed the monster) will deliver LOTS of hits where Chargemaster versus benchrest volume like a Harrell or Culver gets kicked around i.e. at the top of a search: https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/04/weight-vs-volume-the-great-debate/comment-page-1/
Or this one, next down the hit list: http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=1024

These days, in the current era of F-Class and the latest technology, the guys spending $3,000 just on their scope probably have a pretty incredible (and very expensive) electronic scale in their reloading room - properly set up and shielded of course. Because you can have all kinds of variance and user induced error, despite the fact you thought you could buy a little bit of success by plunking one of the most expensive electronic digital scales down on your bench.

On the other side of the coin, buying the best powder measure on the market doesn't guarantee the owner can throw benchrest/precision shooting charges out of it. There is a LOT of technique involved in getting the most consistent, uniform results out of any method of volume charging cases. More than required to use any of the weighing options available.

It's probably true that these days, as long as money is no object, a digital scale will probably produce the most consistent and tightest grouping available out of a high end F-Class rifle. Whether or not anybody has compared groups loaded out of high end digital setup, high end balance beam setup, and high end volume charger in the same F-Class rifle, I do not know. That would be interesting, especially if it was an F-Class rifle and competitor from the middle of the pack. I'd assume if a method other than a digital scale produced as good a grouping ability or better without making reloading to time consuming a process, those at the top would be using that rather than a digital scale.
 
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