Calibrating Powder Balance Scale

The thing is, long distance reloaders load in nodes. If my rifle shoots good at 42.0-42.3, with a beam scale, loading 42.1 + or minus the 0.02 grains of the FX120i, does it really matter? The FX120i probably is accurate enough to load out of a node, but who does that?
( I still want an FX120i lol )
 
The thing is, long distance reloaders load in nodes.

I'm going to guess that the benchresters throwing their charges were essentially also loading to a node that gave the best accuracy in that rifle. A volume node versus a weight node. But that's a guess; not claiming that to be a fact.
 
I'm going to guess that the benchresters throwing their charges were essentially also loading to a node that gave the best accuracy in that rifle. A volume node versus a weight node. But that's a guess; not claiming that to be a fact.

Would think so. I just cringe though when I make a volume charge in my muzzleloader, ( I weigh charges and put them into tubes, I only do by volume when I run out in the field when sighting in ) seems to work decent but its a close range rifle, I can't imagine doing that with my other rifles.
 
The guys also using black powder in their Sharps, High Wall, etc rifles shooting silhouette, the steel buffalo, etc out to 1,000 yards and beyond are pretty much all charging their cases by volume.

Those aren't close ranges or close range rifles with black powder and volume charges.
 
Sure but they are shooting at a huge target, not going for 3" groups. I mean even for people trying to get enough powder in a case without crunching powder use things like long drop tube to try and settle out the powder so it takes up less space. A person would have to take a weighed charge, convert it to volume. Then see if you can fill a container by volume to within your known powder charge node.
I know Blackhorn 209 has a conversion for blackpowder but no idea if that works for rifle powder. 110 by volume x .7 = 77 grains.
 
Volume for smokeless - I recall an article from way back (1970's or earlier) by Elmer Keith - he went with volume over weight - was convinced that powder changed weight from changes in moisture, etc. - he found his most reliable loading was by volume, so discussion was about the most accurate volume dispensers that were available, then. I believe he had a lot to do with bringing the 44 Magnum and the 338 Win Mag to production? Can read similar written by Richard Lee - but he may have had ulterior motives in the stuff that he wrote? Having been in industry, but not in cartridge making, I do not believe that production machinery would be loading cases by weighing each charge - maybe they do? Would think it would be by volume at a production level? Do not know how technology has moved - I had helped install some nearly "flow through" weigh scales that were actually weighing on transducer cells, as the product appeared to simply flow into the top and out the bottom - but that was for loading semi trailers and rail cars - so not in grains weight, for sure!!!
 
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Funny stuff. While I’m sure the old fart behind the screen name enjoys making snarky ice cream scoop/bottom dweller comments- We did a pile of testing weighed vs thrown, before making the decision for ourselves. It works for us, but we shoot fair volumes and don’t need a load that shoots in the 0.1s for our game. Single digit SD and 0.3-0.5 MOA- none of which is hard with the right rig, combination of compenents and a thrown load- and we are done load development & on to practicing on the clock.

But, what works for me and buds, might not meet the requirements of others. And that’s just fine.
 
Volume for smokeless - I recall an article from way back (1970's or earlier) by Elmer Keith - he went with volume over weight - was convinced that powder changed weight from changes in moisture, etc. - he found his most reliable loading was by volume, so discussion was about the most accurate volume dispensers that were available, then.

Yes, and Keith saying the weight of powder changing is probably a fact as well.

But for probably <1% of reloaders, they will take any tiny bit of improved consistency/grouping they can get. Factories are not loading ammunition to the precision of the accuracy guys, meaning they don't turn necks, true primer pockets, etc. There is more variance in the rifles it will be used in, the lot of cases going through the machinery, the lot of powder, primers, wear on machines, etc.

You have the F-Classers prominent in competition and social media like Eric Cortina, who makes a pretty entertaining and informational video, and then there's the best benchresters today, etc.

My guess would be whatever game the best are in, with the money they spend on rifles, scopes, travel, etc, if experimenting showed volume charging gave tighter groups and more consistent performance, they'd do it. Alternately, if they had to pay attention to being perfectly consistent in technique from thrown charge to thrown charge to just get the same results, then they're probably going to go with a really expensive digital scale where the consistent technique necessary is pushing a button.

Any benchresters here? Most still charging by volume; or have they made the move to spendy electronic scales as well to chase tighter groups?

At that level of competition and at that level of being financially invested in it, I'd assume that whatever means of charging proved to deliver better grouping ability, that's the one they'd be using.

That isn't the other 99% of reloaders out there.
 
I assume by benchresters you are speaking to the 100 to 200 yard crowd.

Yes at such a short distance it is common practice to throw powder and little effort is usually made to weight precisely.

The reason is simple... Even a 50 FPS load variation has almost no effect on vertical at such short distances. It can however make a difference with barrel harmonics, so it is a slippery slope.

The other side of that coin is that short range bench rest is typically performed using small powder charge and relatively fast burning powder in relatively short barrels.

All things things contribute to reduce the need to weigh precise loads while still getting low enough ES.

1000 yard bench rest is a totally different animal and they will obsess about everything. I know guys that sort brass by the average velocity they get from each individual piece of brass. Since it is not a high round count game, they can get very specific.
 
What method of measuring by volume would a top shooter use? I did an experiment with my TC muzzleloader volume measurer, it was not so great of a result for a precision rifle. Certainly did not change my mind on not using a scale.
10 volume poured, then weighed. Target weight 41.2 grains, ES was 1.0 grains. H4350 powder used. I tapped the side of the container 30 times before sliding the top over, tried my best to make them the same.
 
Not sure I know what top guys do, but your test - you are assuming that the very best system to measure volume (like cubic centimetres) results in equal weights (grains) - at least in Keith's article, was his point - he wanted the volume of powder the same, and knew that means the weight might vary, because he thought the moisture content could vary - he thought his consistent (best) loads came from consistent volume of powder, which is not the same thing as consistent weight of powder. If he was correct that moisture content varies, then throwing identical weights will result in different volumes. He chose volume as the indice to use...
 
I assume by benchresters you are speaking to the 100 to 200 yard crowd.

You're assuming I'm not speaking of the 1000 yard benchrest crowd, like Gale and Mac McMillan.

Two who most aren't old enough to know they were winning and setting records in 1000 yard benchrest as well as 100 and 200 yard benchrest, long before they started making the stocks that most younger members think of when they hear the name McMillan.

But then, that was about 20+ years ago, long before the WWW was a thing and many were not yet born, or at least not pulling triggers yet.
 
What method of measuring by volume would a top shooter use? I did an experiment with my TC muzzleloader volume measurer, it was not so great of a result for a precision rifle. Certainly did not change my mind on not using a scale.

Timely you should mention experimenting with your TC muzzleloader. Another guy is ringing steel at 1,200 yards, also experimenting with his TC muzzleloader. Using aperture sights, shooting not off a benchrest, but off bags on top of the hood of his truck, loading his powder by volume.

Jump to the 2:08 mark, unless you want to listen to the guy talk for a couple of minutes first:

https://youtu.be/vLWxdEfB_ag?t=128

Which is not to claim that if you aren't loading by volume, you're doing it wrong. But charging by volume rather than by weight is not quite the handicap at long range that many presume it to be.
 
Timely you should mention experimenting with your TC muzzleloader. Another guy is ringing steel at 1,200 yards, also experimenting with his TC muzzleloader. Using aperture sights, shooting not off a benchrest, but off bags on top of the hood of his truck, loading his powder by volume.

Jump to the 2:08 mark, unless you want to listen to the guy talk for a couple of minutes first:

https://youtu.be/vLWxdEfB_ag?t=128

Which is not to claim that if you aren't loading by volume, you're doing it wrong. But charging by volume rather than by weight is not quite the handicap at long range that many presume it to be.

Actually I am not testing my muzzleloader, just using the TC measuring device. With my test I did, it would be in and out of the charge-by-weight node for that rifle. So it would not hold 1/2 moa without using a scale.
 
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