Can you identify this antique (?) firearm

Thanks guys, Tiriag you made a couple interesting points, thank you-- guns made for US trading companies were far less standardized than ones purchased by HBC or NWC, also that because of that this particular gun could of come up with the Sioux , another thing I got thinking about , there were US traders in the Hills in the 1870's, they had a direct route to Fort Benton in Montana . Anyways all interesting, You know it never mattered much till now who this gun was , I just cared what it was if that makes any sense :yingyang: But now I do wish I knew where it had it's beginnings, Here is a couple more pics, sometimes when I look at it patch box-- looks crude Pennsylvania? - Lancaster? trigger looks-- European? Trigger guard well made Lock-- American?-- well now does that look flint converted?? So here's some more pics, maybe someone will say oh I know who made that. :) and if not , oh well Cheers.

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This is a really interesting thresd!
I can't add to the gun information, but I can repeat a bit of history of when the first muzzle loading guns were sold to the Indians of Central BC. Father Morice was the first Priest to come into the area called New Caledonia, centered around Fort St. James. He had a great carear in the area and among his many accompishments was teaching the Indians the English language, and recording their own dialects. Morice Mountain, Lake, River, etc, are all named after him.
He wrote a large book, New Caladonia is in the title but I forget the exact words, very historical and almost never found outside of museums. I have read the entire large book, twice.
One account tells of the Indian who was at a trading post when the first guns came in. The post operator told him how it worked and taught him to load and fire it.
The Indian returned to his camp, just glowing with enthusiasum as he explained it to his skeptical people. One man said to him, "You say you point it at somethng, it says 'Bang,' and the thing falls dead, but I don't believe you." The gun owner tried to convince him it was true, but the other felow said, "Then point it at me, let it say bang and I'll show you that I won't fall dead!"
With that, the fellow stood proudly in front of the man with the gun and said, "Go ahead, make it say bang."
The gun owner did just that, and shot a hole through the doubter!
 
Further to H4831, for anyone who is real interested: "The history of the northern interior of British Columbia " by the aforementioned A.G Morice, lots of good reading. There are other publications of his that are also good reads.

I poked around the HBC archives in Winnipeg a few years back, looking for info on FS James & Fort Connelly (Bear Lake north of Takla) if you're really keen there are lots of good accounts in there as well.

Not a lot of specifics about firearms, you have to dig but the references are there.


There are some great books on Pennsylvanian & trade rifles around, I know Track of the Wolf has some... I did look through what I have but can't find anything useful on ID'ing the second rifle, other than it is pretty likely a small shop built unit. Maybe an apprentice's first. Looks like a blend of styles which isn't all that unusual.

It really is those "well-loved" rifles that are the hardest to come by since they were actually USED and as such, seem to have the lowest survival rate (but the best stories - if they could talk eh)
 
Hi: I want to add a little to this thread, and would like the OP or OOT as I would like to call him to click on the link below, I spent part of this afternoon reading this link and I have information overload . Gawd I didn't realize how much stuff there is on the net. I have to buy this book on the link., it is called Guns On The Early Frontier by Carl Russel. anyways there is a huge amount of info on the trade rifle like OOT found and very very interesting. It doesn't have to be a Barnett which until this read was about all I knew . I think Tiriag mentioned other makers anyways there were many and one thing most all makers supplying guns for the Indian trade , US and Canada followed--- as I can tell is a dragon like ornament on the left side of the stock and a sitting fox on either lock or barrel so under your rust you will likely have that OOT. Most also use that big trigger guard , I think from memory called a mackinaw guard :confused:These guns were made in England Belgium, and US. and maybe other places Then there were guns made in the US for the Indian trade by a number of makers some well known like Derringer, Golcher Edit-- Golcher only made the locks. And some probably just a small shop like probably made mine. These were more styled after the plains rifle with shorter barrel The only reference I can find to anything that may look like mine is on page 131 (letter C ) a crude drawing of a gun for Indian trade that is in the Jefferson Museum in St Louis. I kind of picked up on the cheek piece and shape. I am wondering if my wife will go for a winter holiday to St Louis to check this out :), Is it warm there? OH forgot I will have to sell my gun to afford the trip, any takers. Cheers John

http://books.google.ca/books?id=BJR...r_esc=y#v=onepage&q=barnett trade gun&f=false

This is what a minty serpent looks like but who wants that yours is way more cool
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For the people interested in the trade guns, Here is a few pics of another gun from my collection that I call a trade gun although the die hard Hudson Bay collector would want the lock to have Hudson Bay Company on it. It is an Imperial number 2, in 28 gauge. Built for the fur trade by as I believe Hollis and Son Birmingham and sold or traded by the HBC. correct me if I am wrong on this tiriag, I think you know the history of the Imperials. A sweet little gun to shoot, points wonderful, as a younger fellow I used to shoot live pigeons in the old barn at the farm till I caught the hay on fire. :eek: Didn't burn the barn down but the fun got stopped.:( BTW does anybody else have any Imperial guns, I also have parts and pieces of two little double guns that I think are Imperials.

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I have an Imperial 24 bore muzzleloader, front action lock, though. Otherwise very similar to yours.
These shotguns essentially replaced the serpent trade guns. The Birmingham trade was manufacturing sporting guns; the NW gun was a unique style.
 
The one man I know who knows antique muskets is John Denner in Alexandria, Ont. He used to have a good business buying, selling and appraising antique guns, swords, etc. If you are serious about putting a name to this piece contact him.
 
An original Northwest Trade Gun - what a find!! Other than determining whether it is loaded, I would strongly resist any urge to "restore" it beyond a unique wall-hanger. Most were 58 or 62 caliber although some were 54.
A toothbrush, elbow grease and a bit of oil might yield a name on the lock plate and show the sitting fox-in-a-circle stamp on the lock plate and/or barrel over the breech. There is lots of info on NW trade Guns on the internet.
 
Ol' Flinter said:
A toothbrush, elbow grease and a bit of oil might yield a name on the lock plate and show the sitting fox-in-a-circle stamp on the lock plate and/or barrel over the breech. .
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As a percussion gun it would be a HBC trade gun with a tombstone fox. The circle fox is North West Co (unless I am mistaken) and they amalgamated with HBC in 1821 and well before percussion trade guns. It is a lucky find just the same.

cheers mooncoon
 
mooncoon said:
As a percussion gun it would be a HBC trade gun with a tombstone fox. The circle fox is North West Co (unless I am mistaken) and they amalgamated with HBC in 1821 and well before percussion trade guns. It is a lucky find just the same.

cheers mooncoon
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Mooncoon I find all the imformation very interesting on the trade guns built by all the different makers for the fur trade. Have you read that book Guns on the Early Frontiers by Carl Russel, that I posted a link to in a earlier post. In it on the trade gun section, the author says that pretty much all the guns built specifically for the fur trading companies both in Canada and the US by all different makers had some sort of fox sitting, standing in a circle or otherwise on either the lock or barrel. The same makers aparently also supplied guns to trading companies in India and Africa and on those an elephant replaced the fox. I hope a few other collectors can chime in here and show their old trade rifles, I would like to see some pics of the Imperial line of guns with Hudson Bay CO on the locks. Cheers
 
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The serpent and a fox marks were pretty much standard on trade guns. The AFC W Chance lock I mentionned had a sitting fox, but instead of EB, had IA. Jacob Astor.
 
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