Canadian Manufactured 7.62 x 51 Semi Auto

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Epoxy7 said:
Many companies have branched into military types of applicatins as side projects/companies. It doesn't matter what you build, you'll need insurance. You build a widget and one i s found to be defective well depending on what it was used in you could be the subject of lawsuits. Insurance and risks no matter what you do are normal. The firearms industry isn't unique in that aspect.
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Lets look at this from a business perspective..

whats the market for Canada for a rifle like this.. maybe 3000-4000 (like the 4000 ARs in Canada)..

whats the market for a rifle like this in the US?? probably 10x that.

Where are the skills market for people you would need to run this business (Experts in Sales, and Technical Design).. they are in the US.

how are you going to market this.. Websites and cold calls.. the sales market and tradeshows are in the US with the US customers..

it just doesn't make sense to build a rifle like this in Canada. the $$ don't add up to a profitable product.. it's not like you are taking a startup company (Three guys in a Garage) and going from nothing to a small profit.. you are talking a large corporation which has shareholders who expect a GOOD profit. if they don't see it, then they won't do it. Even if there is an inclination to "build it" then they would expect it to be built in the most profitable market (the US, not Canada)..

anyone who has dealt with shareholders know this basic concept.
 
Epoxy,

It's not a competition against magpul, it was an attempt on my part to draw a parallel in business practice/progression.

Start small, get a reliable income and product-base, then go for the guns.

NS
 
ckc123 said:
So I take it you have a Board of Directors (and owners) that you have to convince to spend time, money, and RISK, on a rifle which needs to be cheap enough to not make a high profit on, and the risk of being sued for millions if someone dies by using it..

The insurance policy alone would probably be 100K or more.

The idea is good, but the business risks don't seem attractive.
(would your risk a multi million $$ company on someone who has never built a rifle before to put your whole company at risk for a lawsuit??)
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Do You work for Windy Wendy
What business is it of yours I know it is none of mine .I am sure he has thought out everything very carefully and he doesnt need to share with us .Enough with the doom and gloom
 
I like the idea of starting with a firearms related company. Start one that has a relatively good chance at being successful something that everyone needs. Once you have a steady income off of that you can create a subsidiary that builds firearms.

Start with a tacticool or gun related clothing company. Find a niche in the market and fill it. You have a better chance creating a private military firm like Blackwater then you would starting a firearms production company from scratch.
 
I still think that if it were possible to make a "sporting" configuration (IE walnut stocks, non-pistol grip) it would broaden the market considerably.

I think there is a market for a 'nice' looking accurate and reliable rifle, even at the high end of the price structure.
With the interchangeable barrels comes the possibility of changing calibres. How about .243 for the varmint guys? or .338 Federal? Maybe 6.5-.284? Unchambered barrels for wildcaters?
Part of the marketing could be something like a "torture test" fire a couple thousand rounds and then prove the accuracy again, because a lot of hunters think they shoot a lot more than they really do.
 
Changing calibers offers HUGE problems for design, as you need to accomodate a varying degrees of port pressure and recoil energy, as well as different angles and bolt designs.

The best bet is to make 1 viable design. It can be played with later once money starts coming in, and you have a proven system that works.


4 years ago - I posted the SCAR pdf. FN Herstal had been working prior to that -- think of the R&D budget a company like that has -- the Mk16 is still not in issue format.

Robinson Armaments had their XCR type gun way before that for the SPR V trial - and it still is not a viable gun.


baby steps are better.
 
Once again Kevin is right. The XCR is a good example and it is already an out of date design. It take a lot of knowledge and access to the market to bring a product like that about. Thing about Magpul is people will buy their rifle because they have baught and are happy with Magpul products they already have. And Magpul still had to partner with a well rooted manufacturer.
 
I have not yet bought any other Magpul items, but I was impressed with the Masada rifle. If it was available in Canada I would consider it.

As for partnering with Bushmaster, their reason for doing so was that they felt they could only build about 3000 guns per year in house. Not enough for the US market, but that would be plenty for the Canadian market.
 
ckc123 said:
Lets look at this from a business perspective..

whats the market for Canada for a rifle like this.. maybe 3000-4000 (like the 4000 ARs in Canada)..

whats the market for a rifle like this in the US?? probably 10x that.

Where are the skills market for people you would need to run this business (Experts in Sales, and Technical Design).. they are in the US.

how are you going to market this.. Websites and cold calls.. the sales market and tradeshows are in the US with the US customers..

it just doesn't make sense to build a rifle like this in Canada. the $$ don't add up to a profitable product.. it's not like you are taking a startup company (Three guys in a Garage) and going from nothing to a small profit.. you are talking a large corporation which has shareholders who expect a GOOD profit. if they don't see it, then they won't do it. Even if there is an inclination to "build it" then they would expect it to be built in the most profitable market (the US, not Canada)..

anyone who has dealt with shareholders know this basic concept.
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First of all if you honestly think there are only 4000 AR rifles in Canada. I've got some swamp land in Florida I'll sell you. I can tell you right now that isn't correct. AR-15 designated rifles ala Colt, then probably yes. AR rifles under different names. Not a chance. Those numbers aren't even close.

Two factories in the United states I seem to recall were mentioned. Which means manufacturing capabilities already in the US. I'd use the Canadian market for my start up. Then move production to the US once the product was established and you have a good product to bring. Wasn't there a recent Canadian firearms manufacturer who did just that? Seems to be a safer bet than going for broke right out of the gate in the US with it's very highly competitive market place. Get the product, get the name and then go for the big leagues. Just my thought on it.

How are they going to market it? Oh I don't know Cabellas Canada/Sir doesn't seem to have any problems marketing the products they carry. Seems like the marketing can be taken care of by the retailers just fine. Word of mouth, the internet etc also has an effect. If it's reliable, accurate and well made it'll sell itself.

Regardless, ckc123 if they have 3 plants then I would think the company knows a thing or two about manufacturing, and getting their product to the market. You don't get to three manufacturing plants without having those things covered. Frankly I think they would be a lot better at solving those problems than us. ;)
 
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NavyShooter said:
Epoxy,

It's not a competition against magpul, it was an attempt on my part to draw a parallel in business practice/progression.

Start small, get a reliable income and product-base, then go for the guns.

NS
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No arguments with that. By the way I do actually like the magpul rifles. Would have also got one if they were available in Canada.
 
If Severus have the finanical resources, I honestly think they should consider hiring Magpul as design "consultant" for this project.
 
Severus should build a reputation in the industry for something so that people will actualy know who they are and buy the gun.

I'm not trying to put the idea down but there is no way I would buy any "new and unproven" rifle for over $500. Lets be honest are you going to spend $2k on something that will have the usual bugs from a company that could go away at any time? Where would one get parts or the knowledge to fix them?

No military in the world is gonna buy them in any numbers with so many other options that have either just come online or are in the pipe.

If Severus have the finanical resources, I honestly think they should consider hiring Magpul as design "consultant" for this project.
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If they have a good idea and a good design (sounds like they have more of a desire and some money) they should be looking to a company that is currently on the sidelines to infuse them with knowledge and reputation like Remington, Winchester or even Glock. Glock may be a good choice as they have experiance with polymers. Thing is you need to have a good idea/design to work from.

There are a lot of companies all over the world that are coming out with "new generation" designs.

I know I'm gonna pay for this one, but if it were me I would look at making a polymer 7.62Nato rifle using a system simular to the VZ58. The big problem with so many of the new designs is that they are complicated. How about a simple system that works? VZ58 is such a nice simple design and its accurate, if somebody changed a couple points it could be adaptable to all the modern requirements.
 
greentips said:
If Severus have the finanical resources, I honestly think they should consider hiring Magpul as design "consultant" for this project.
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CAN'T

You and Esquif need to read ITAR's more.


I dont want to be rude - but you cannot export technology or transfer it out of the U.S. without Department of State approval.
look at Colt Canada, for internal Canadian sale to LE, they need DSP-83's approved.


Accept it, and Get over it
 
Then go get DOS's approval!

Nothing a good lawyer cannot figure out.

You can even engage the design team one by one to work for you. Hire them individually on contract.

KevinB said:
CAN'T

You and Esquif need to read ITAR's more.


I dont want to be rude - but you cannot export technology or transfer it out of the U.S. without Department of State approval.
look at Colt Canada, for internal Canadian sale to LE, they need DSP-83's approved.


Accept it, and Get over it
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Colt Canada/Deimaco was bought by Colt for a number of reasons.

Technology transfer is the issue here. You cannot consult a U.S. citizen or resident without approval of the Department of State.

You will not be able to gain export approval of certain technolgies without guarantees that it will either be only for Mil or LE usage.
 
suprathepeg said:
And what if we are talking about a new technology?
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Yeah, that's it! Just build a rail gun or a plasma rifle!

KevinB said:
Technology transfer is the issue here. You cannot consult a U.S. citizen or resident without approval of the Department of State.
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Exactly. That's what Shawn Nealon of Cav Arms told me in Sept. when I was asking him questions about how he builds his polymer AR lowers.
 
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