Concealed weapon or not: The bush and animal protection

I thought that I had made it clear that a gun, ANY gun, was better in a crisis than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick (or any male appendage). I think that some have taken my rationale as a slight on their macho self-image, their ability to defend themselves and others with their 'antique' revolvers. Not so. I just think that some have not thought it all the way through.

In the scenario you described, you were lucky. Do you think that in a replay, you would have had the presence of mind to draw your Schofield and place the shot without risk to your Dad? Just asking. You were the man on the scene and I'm curious.
When I was charged three times successively by the same bear, I had my 50-70 cocked and aimed. I was icy cool as I've been nose to nose with bears a few times and I knew that if I blew that shot I would have a $2500 club in my hands and my wife, myself and the dogs were in for an exciting time. I had 6 more rds in a belt slide, but that takes a little time. In the interval, there was going to a scene out of hell with my wife in the middle of it.

Few people who have contributed to this dialogue have had the experience of a bear encounter and fewer yet those who have experienced an actual charge by an enraged animal. The rest are living an armchair wilderness fantasy. Nothing wrong with that until you have to put it on the line.
 
This is what we have to overcome. Just off the top of my head, I'm not sure how we go ahead with this. There are likely more of us spending time in the bush recreationally than there are making a living out there.

The cfo already use a competency range test for people who want a wilderness atc but you have to be employed and working in the bush to qualify.Ordinary people don't qualify.

BTW - in between posts, I've done other email correspondence, reloaded 150 rds of .45 ACP and x-country skied 7.5 kms with my wife and two dogs. Frequently we see moose tracks and occasionally wolf tracks. I step out the door and I'm having a 'wilderness experience'.

The point - I have a vested interest in the topic.
 
Last edited:
In the scenario you described, you were lucky. Do you think that in a replay, you would have had the presence of mind to draw your Schofield and place the shot without risk to your Dad? Just asking. You were the man on the scene and I'm curious.
Absolutely, no question at all. I was thinking and unusually calm the entire time, knowing that if I messed up, Dad might not make it. It would have been easier and quicker to simply draw, shove the muzzle to almost contact the side of the head where its brain is and pull the trigger. I would have had no difficulty doing that whatsoever. I had shot cattle before in the brain and knew exactly where to put that bullet ..... but I did not have a bullet to deliver.

I was icy cool as I've been nose to nose with bears a few times and I knew that if I blew that shot ...

I have experienced the same icy coolness on my close encounters with a bear, but it was not due to previous experience in having close encounters with bears. I need to thank my grandmother for training me as a pre-schooler to never run from a bear or wolf nor make a fast move. They lived right against the north boundary of the Riding Mountain National Park and I spent a lot of time playing outdoors in the summer on their farm as a little kid. There were a lot of bear around. It takes self control and a fellow needs to be able to think, even a pre-schooler like I was at the time, if he isn't going to simply do what the adrenaline tells him to do. So, many years later I was deer hunting on my father's farm. The sun set, and a half hour after sunset, when legal hunting time was over, I started the half mile hike through the bush back to the farm yard. In the advancing darkness, I came across a spot in the bush where it looked like someone had been raking leaves into a few piles. I was mystified, it was a long way from the nearest road. Then I noticed a big hole under an Aspen tree and like a moron, knelt down to try and see in the hole. It was too dark, so I pulled out my little Mag light, focused the beam on the ground beside where I was kneeling and then swung the beam into the hole. By gum, there was a huge black face looking at me about 18 inches away .... a big Black Bear just inside his den. Totally unexpected! Instant adrenaline rush, but my grandmother's training complete with visions of her shaking her finger in my face to emphasize the point, cut in within a fraction of a second. My Marlin 45-70 was in my right hand and I cocked the hammer, pointed the muzzle in the bear's face and smoothly stood up and stepped back. I would say that took from one to two seconds .... smooth and as fast as I thought I could stand up and step back without the bear thinking that it was a fast move and reacting. I was in complete control of myself the whole time, but my nice leather glove was also in my left hand with the Mag light, and it had accidentally dropped out of my hand when I pointed the Mag light into the bear's face about 18. Staring the bear in the eye, keeping my muzzle pointed right between those two eyes, in as smooth and reassuring motion as I figured the bear would like, I bent my legs and stretched my arm out just enough to reach the glove and retrieved it. Since the big fellow wasn't causing any harm and behaved himself, I left him alone and continued my hike home.

The time I ran into a bear with a stringer of Jackfish, I was about a half mile from the road and in the Riding Mountain National Park. A friend of mine was right behind me when I rounded a bend in the path and there was a full grown Black Bear standing on his hind legs right in front of me, just staring at me and my stringer of Northern Pike. I heard a sound behind me of my friend sprinting back down the path toward the Bead Lakes and I would have to admit that the sound of my friend's feet leaving the starting blocks made my muscles snap into sprint readiness, but grandmother's strict instructions cut in and I resisted the urge to flee. Instead, I began to step slowly backward, with the plan that if the bear decided to advance toward me, I would lay the stringer on the path, but not unless I had to. If that failed, I was already unsnapping my fillet knife with the idea of using it as my backup plan. Running back was not an option because my wife was back there somewhere. Again, I had experienced a blast of adrenaline when I looked up and saw that big boy standing on his hind feet right in front of me, but I was icy calm the whole time. From what I read of a lot of people in emergency situations, some just soil their drawers, but most seem to become perfectly calm and level headed. That is what I experienced. Would I have had the presence of mind to draw a 45 Schofield on my belt if I had had one? I instinctively reached for my fillet knife and unsnapped it calmly without really having to think much about it and I have never practiced fast drawing my fillet knife, so there would have been no difference if I had a 45 Schofield on my belt except I have practiced quite a bit with that.

I was charged by what I could only conclude was an insane Black Bear once. I was swathing hay on our farm on a beautiful summer day, almost a quarter mile from any bush when I saw a Black Bear coming toward me dead ahead. I was driving a Versatile swather with no cab; the platform was about four feet off the ground. To my disbelief, the Black Bear looked at me from about 75 yards away and then flat out charged. I could not believe it was happening since the swather is a lot bigger than a bear and makes a lot of noise. He was closing the distance at about the speed of an Olympic sprinter and I was thinking real hard about what to do, but at least this time given our two closing speeds, I had about four seconds to come up with a solution before he was on the platform helping me off my seat. In my mind, only a bear possessed would charge a fellow on a swather and I figured it was frothing ready to leap onto my platform and rip me to ribbons. I thought of the hammer back in the tool box but there was no time to get it, and there was no way I could outrun a bear with that old swather, so I raised the cutting table to meet the bear about where his legs joined his body, and raised the reel so that he would be forced to leap under it rather than try to jump over it, and I pushed the lever full speed ahead. Those last few yards were covered pretty fast and just before impact, the bear lost its nerve and broke away and jogged off across the hayfield. Personally, I think the bear must have been a mental case to do something like that and I shudder to think of what might have happened if I had been on foot as I often was in that area. Still, I was clear headed, thinking through options, and reached the best decision I think I could have reached under the circumstances and the whole event probably didn't last much more than five seconds. Like I say, some people may pee their pants, but from what I read, a lot of people are able to command icy calmness in the face of an emergency and pumping adrenaline.

Few people who have contributed to this dialogue have had the experience of a bear encounter and fewer yet those who have experienced an actual charge by an enraged animal. The rest are living an armchair wilderness fantasy. Nothing wrong with that until you have to put it on the line.
Well, I think you are right again. Nevertheless, I think there is a lot of merit in imagining a situation, asking yourself what you would do in that situation, and then rehearsing your plan so that if it ever actually happens, one at least has mentally trained oneself to respond accordingly. I totally agree that fake scenarios do not produce the adrenaline explosion, but my grandmother's training to me as a preschooler sure shouted loud and clear within a fraction of a second of my very first bear encounter. As far as boastful talking by armchair folks, there is a nice Bible quote that I have always thought was cool, 'Let not he who puts on his armour boast like he who takes it off' (1 Kings chapter 20 verse 11). Still, when the chips are down, I think some of us will experience that icy calm you spoke of. I really do like the idea of something on my belt in the bush that will send a 250 grain slug out the barrel at 850 fps. At least it is better than my fillet knife.
 
Last edited:
No one has yet taken me up on my test - being tackled by a 250 lb person who beats on you while you are fumbling for whatever weapon you have on you, be it a gun, spray or knife. Said attacking person will not have sharp claws or a set of teeth ripping into your flesh

As to this idea of yours ^ id say its been proven time and time again the guy with the gun wins just look at Boothill or any other old 1890s grave yard. :)
Plenty of guys brought down by antique handguns in the past.
Again nothing to do with this thred at all. off topic again.

Theres no griz around here but plenty of black bears and as mentioned before theres nothing supper special about a black bear skull. The tests done with the penatration of a keith SWC 250 gr bullet show there gona do the deed at 800+ fps end of story.
no one has said it would be easy but id tell you what id rather die trying than laying there unarmed screaming for help till i was half eaten or dead.
 
Last edited:
In the following video, a lion is killed in less than 20 seconds with 4 close range shots (by the recoil I hazard to say it's a 38 special)
Enough said!
 
Lots of good points being made.

In the interval since my last post, I've loaded 50 .44 Russian rds. That would be in the same league as Win 38-55's .45 Schofield. My S&W Russki is a great plinker, a fun gun to shoot, but would I want to take on an angry bear with it? Not if I had a choice of a lot of other weapons.
I think we're all in agreement that some protection is better than none, especially in the hands of someone who can maintain their cool.
 
Gruesome! What language are they speaking?

A little different scenario than an attack in the wild. Looks like a handler was grabbed by the lion who simply held on. It would have been a lot worse had the lion brought his hind feet into the fray and disembowelled the guy. The shooter had a stationary target, which was a very fortunate circumstance.

In the books I've got on bear attacks, none of the scenarios involved 'grab and hold'. They were much more violent and aggressive.

In the following video, a lion is killed in less than 20 seconds with 4 close range shots (by the recoil I hazard to say it's a 38 special)
Enough said!
 
Basically, I think we are all pretty much in agreement with the following:
  • If anyone ever does experience a real bear or cougar attack, it is not going to be a walk in the park just because a fellow has an antique pistol (or a big rifle for that matter)
  • In such an attack, an antique pistol is better than no antique pistol
 
Basically, I think we are all pretty much in agreement with the following:
  • If anyone ever does experience a real bear or cougar attack, it is not going to be a walk in the park just because a fellow has an antique pistol (or a big rifle for that matter)
  • In such an attack, an antique pistol is better than no antique pistol


I'd agree.
 
Basically, I think we are all pretty much in agreement with the following:
  • If anyone ever does experience a real bear or cougar attack, it is not going to be a walk in the park just because a fellow has an antique pistol (or a big rifle for that matter)
  • In such an attack, an antique pistol is better than no antique pistol

Agreed one should have a good understanding of balistics like you do when it comes to reloading to tho eh.
The way you load your ammo what bullets you use ect has alot to do with how this outcome would turn out.
Thats why i dont think you can just lump all antique handguns together.
I shoot alot more powerfull loads from my soild frame guns than my break action guns.
the best gun is the one you have true but better to have as strong a antique gun as you can so it can handle a decent load.
44 Russian and 45 schofield are by no meens the same thing at all.
My SAA colt that shoots 45 Sch is shooting alot hotter round than my S&W DA in 44 Russian.
So the type of antique handgun you have is another major factor in your outcome should it ever happen.

I have shot 45 Schofield in a custom S&W DA i have it hurt my hands yet the same exact load in a bigger orignal 45 schofield revolver i can shoot that all day both are break open action guns.
The smaller S&W DA im gona load back them 45 sch loads for that gun so its more comforable to shoot.
Yet my S&W Schofield second model loves that load.
I can of course load even hotter 45 schofield loads in my soild frame bisley FTT

But again this is where a good understanding of balistics comes to play.
 
Last edited:
But again this is where a good understanding of balistics comes to play.
Yes dingus.
Your advice re; 2400 loads for the big bores/roomy cases has worked out very well.
Surely did start me off on the right foot, back when I was green and wet behind the ears.
Like that predictably linear pressure/vel. curve as the charge is increased. No surprises.
Like that it's bulkiness will never let a double charge go unnoticed.
Like how it meters so precise through the measure.
Like the impressive muzzle/cyl. gap flameballs of an evening.
Like how it mimicks BP pressure at BP vels.
Like how it doesn't lead.
Like how it's easy on my fragile old guns.

Gotta laugh at the massive volumes of 1/2 un-burned powder left in the bore though! lol.

Mostly, I stay in the 230-250gr soft Keith swc, 6-750fps vel. range, would like to push up into the 800's someday ... but that will be with a stronger gun than those I have at the moment. (IE ... .44 spl SAA? :D:):cool:)
 
Last edited:
Dingus is right about ballistics. It is one of the reasons I have chosen the 45 Scofield as my antique cartridge of choice. Factors include a heavy bullet and a respectable velocity at low pressures. For example, the base of the .454 Schofield bullet has 11% more surface area than the .431 44 Russian. So for the same pressure, and bullet weight I can put the bullet out the barrel 11% faster. Type of bullet makes a difference as well. Here is where the Keith bullet, available for both the 45 and 44, amoung other calibers, really punches. Not all antique calibers are created equal when it come to damage at the receiving end.
 
Let’s not exaggerate bear attacks Sharp's, many have ample time to react, many people survive after being mauled and fighting back.

Fall 2013, a woman walking her dogs in Ontario was saved by her husband after the husband heard his wife being mauled by a black bear and jumped an ATV and came to her assistance and the bear disengaged and ran off. The bear was chewing her legs.

In 2008, 2 fishermen in BC saved another being mauled by a black bear by killing the bear with fishing gaffs and slitting its throat with a fillet knife.

In fact, the amount of recorded fatal black bear attacks pales in comparison to the amount of survived attacks and encounters. This alone proves any defence is better than nothing and people often maintain enough presence of mind to survive.

38-55 I enjoyed reading your posts, thanks for that
 
Last edited:
Paper ballistics and statistics aside, the other factor is the mental preparedness of the individual to act coolly under stress. I think I've found the explanation:

"In life threatening emergency situations, the shift in consciousness from 'time' to 'presence' sometimes happens naturally. The personality that has a 'past' and a 'future' momentarily recedes and is replaced by an intense conscious 'presence', very still but very alert at the same time. Whatever response is needed then arises out of that state of consciousness.
The reason why some people love to engage in dangerous activities such as mountain climbing, car racing, etc., although they may not be aware of it, is that it forces them into the 'NOW' - that intensely alive state that is free of time, free of problems, free of thinking, free of the burden of the personality. Slipping away from the present moment even for a second may mean death." from "The Power of NOW" by Eckhart Tolle, a NY Times #1 best seller

I think that explains the state of icy coolness experienced by Win 38-55 and I both when it was essential for survival. So the next time you are staring down an angry bear with your 'antique' revolver, take comfort in the knowledge that your inbuilt, intuitive conscious 'presence' will save your sorry ass .... ;>)

So let's shelve our little egos and go out to play in the woods with our .450's, .45 Schofields and .44 Russians. The 'Force' is with us!
 
ths is kinda off topic, but if you guys want a light weight, short, easy to carry firearm that is legal for the bush you might consider the rossi ranch hand or mare's leg in .44 mag or .454 casull. Both guns are only about 25 inches long. also you might consider a 12 inch barrel 12 gauge shotgun, they are perfectly legal as well.

No reason why I shouldn't carry a .45 in a shoulder holster when standing waist deep in a stream fly fishing.
 
Makes perfect sense in the real world, except that if said gun was a 1911 .45 ACP, you would be breaking the law.

Been an interesting thread .... we have a couple of people who have actually had experience with attacking animals, one who equates shooting a stationary, penned up lion with a charge by wild bear, one who admits on a public forum to packing iron illegally, others who live vicariously through the writings of Elmer Keith, et al and cite isolated cases of surviving bear attacks, none of them involving the use of 'antique' revolvers.

That was the original gist of the thread, if I recall .....
 
Back
Top Bottom