Concealed weapon or not: The bush and animal protection

[Sharps '63]

more of same

Yadda, yadda, yadda .....

Again, all smoke and mirrors and no substance. I'm still waiting for the first 'been-there-done-that' report of an encounter with a LEO while packing an 'antique'.

In ANY encounter with a LEO for ANY reason, attitude will be a factor - yours and his. Things can and do go sideways PDQ. You can get kicked in the head by a cop having a bad day. We hear about it in the media on a regular basis. Things have changed out there with regard to the police and the public around guns.
We've all had incidents and can relate historical anecdotes about how friendly and convivial contact with LEOs USED to be in the good ol' days.

The recently deceased 49 year old physically and mentally handicapped son of friends was brutally taken down by three RCMP at gun point just over a year ago.
His crime? Some citizen called in a 'man-with-a-gun' having seen him playing with a 'Star Wars' plastic pistol outside his brother's mobile home. He didn't have the gun on him when he was taken down. The trauma is thought to have been a factor in his early death.

Now, imagine a scenario in the boonies where a LEO has every reason to expect people to be armed - with rifles and/or shotguns. Not knowing the law concerning 'antiques', you try to educate him. I respectfully submit that this is not the best time and place for such enlightenment.

So, gentlemen - prove it. We all wait with bated breath to hear the outcome.

BTW - I was out hunting yesterday for the first time. A chubby black bear ran across the trail 12 yards in front of me from right to left. I was looking left and uphill and didn't see him until he ran into my line of vision. The point? Had he decided to blind side me, he would have knocked me (__*__)-over-tea-kettle! The .45 Colt Uberti 'Lightning' rifle I was carrying wouldn't have done me a bit of good, a holstered pistol even less.

 

[werewolf]

So don't carry a "pistol" in the bush, hell don't carry a rifle, I don't care. If in fact I do end up in a situation like you've described,1 I'd rather have something. But then again we have fire extinguishers in our house as well. 2 I carry the appropriate paper as well, so if in fact some time or some place a situation arises then we will see what happens and if it's in the courts and counter suits are necessary against the crown and police etc. then so be it. I for one have talked to a couple of EPS ( Not R.C.M.P. sorry )members at a range about the Antique thing and once they got past the price, they thought it was pretty cool, even cooler once they got to shoot it.

 

[Crazy_Farmer]

A friend is retired rcmp. Stationed up north and around western Canada the whole time. He said he knew guys had concealed handguns in shoulder holsters when they went out into the bush. He had zero problems with that. In a tight spot or if your rifle wasn't handy, in a life or death situation who are you to decide if it's okay as per say the law.

Another guy he knew had a ranch about 40km outside of town off an fsr and every single day of his life he strapped an old colt to his hip and this guy ran across cos and cops quite a few times and they ever said anything.

I've carried a knife in my pocket since I was 16. Use it daily at work and for jut about everything else. Growing up on a farm, guns have always been tools, I've carried a knife for almost 10 years and never even had a situation where I would use it in an illegal manor, what's different then the same with a gun?

 

[Sharps '63]

prove it

I've yet to see a legal opinion posted on the topic. All the baffle gab and self-justification, despite it's logic, isn't worth a pinch of bear scat in court.

No need to convince me about the utility of a pistol in the bush, 'antique' or otherwise. I live on a wood lot 60 kms out of town, on a lake in the boonies. My closest neighbours are moose, deer and bear.
I eat breakfast watching a cow moose and her two year old calf grazing across the lake, 250 yds. away. Now that the rut is on, the calf has been given the boot and Mama Moose is being courted by a young bull.
A friend of mine 10 kms closer to town has been charged by a bear that actually took a swipe at him. I can't get a bear to do anything other than high tail it from me.

What I think is happening here is that some good ol' boys who have an aversion to registered handguns (and who don't hold a placer miner's licence, trapper's licence, etc.) on principle are trying to make a case for packing a pistol in the bush based on the dubious validity of a letter of 'antique' status.

Just taking a guess, I'd say many of them are not the bush men they are trying to make out. I've seen a lot of urban wanna-be 'Crocodile Dundee' types shoot and it's not impressive. Put a clock on them, add a little stress and it becomes laughable. IPSC shooters and CAS shooters know what I'm talking about, and we aren't fighting for our lives.

Wanna see how good you are with your low powered 'antique' pop gun with an elevated heart rate? Get back 25 yds with your holstered 'antique' and run like hell to the firing point. Draw and fire it at an animal silhouette as fast as you can.

Two of my mates (both forestry employees) have taken part in a 'charging bear' scenario with a fast moving target coming at them on a track. They are standing ready, shotgun at 'Port Arms' expecting the 'charge'. Most are lucky to get off more than a couple of rds and the hits are often less than stellar.
The most common problem is short stroking pump action shotguns. Semi-autos do better.

If you think you can't be busted for packing a folding knife or pocket knife, then don't get caught up in a riot situation like the infamous Stanley Cup 'game 7' Vancouver riot. A rock, a beer bottle, a tire iron, a pocket knife will not be looked upon as innocent. Weaponry of any kind at a public gathering is a no-no.

We all knew or know a guy, a 'friend of a friend', etc. who did this that or the other thing, packing a gun openly on the ranch, etc. The opinion of a retired cop from another era is irrelevant. I doubt that the there is a class on the packing of 'antique' firearms being taught currently at the RCMP Depot or at the Justice Institute of BC.

Once was time the packing of a pistol didn't raise an eye brow in polite society. The historic pictures validate this. That era is long gone, along with the buffalo and the open range.

 

[Win 38-55]

Well Sharps '63, if you feel that way, then it's probably better that you don't pack your Brown Bess, or any other legal antique in the bush because there's no place in the law that says you can take a Brown Bess into the bush. You are not going to get a legal opinion on a law that does not exist. If you want it straight from the horse's mouth, get yourself a copy of the law and learn the difference between a prohibited firearm, a restricted firearm, a non-restricted firearm and a legal antique non-firearm. Make yourself a chart with the different categories across the top. Then down the side make two rows: storage and transport. Each category has different rules. If you don't want to pack your original flintlock pistol in the bush, or shoot a slingshot at 2:30 on Tuesday afternoons because there's nothing in the law that gives you permission to do so, then don't do it.

 

[dingus]

Waste of time guys he dont get it.
Beaten before he starts with that attitude.
I called the B.C CFOs main office on this along time ago they told me after a two hr meeting on the subject the way the regs are written that yes i could pack my perscribed antique handgun in the woods and yes i could shoot it where non restricteds could be shot at targets.
Im not sure they were thrilled about it and for sure are not going to advertise the fact but its the law as things now stand.

Theres no need to prove anything its right in the transport and use regs all you need to do is be smart enough to see it.
Its confuseing but its there.

Call your CFO if your worried about it or dont understand the transport and use regs that are about the only thing writen on antique firearms to go on.
If a CFO tells me i can do it thats good enough for me from a legal stand point.
I have the RCMP tell me its a Non firearm and no Licence or Registration or Permits to move it are needed.Have letter to back that up.
I have a set of transport and use regs.
I have the CFOs in B.C that state i can carry the gun the way the regulations on transport and use are writen and i can discharge it target shooting as long as im in and area where non restricted can be fired.

Stateing were trying to get around laws and such useing the antique letters is just a pile of crap.
Like wearwolve says if your worried about it then dont do it! but let the rest of us enjoy our guns without your twisted logic.

 

[Sharps '63]

a little too close for comfort ....?

Hey, foaming at the mouth because I don't agree with your position doesn't warrant a personal attack. I must be getting pretty close to home with my comments to generate such hostility. Don't take out your frustration with our lack of CCW laws on me.
For what it's worth, I don't think it's me that has the comprehension problem.
I'm talking about the current state of affairs regarding the attitude of LEOs towards packing 'antique' pistols. We aren't talking about antique rifles, shotguns or smoothbore muskets.

If you feel justified under law and feel the need to pack your 'antique' pistol, then by all means do so. I still await the 'been-there-done-that' after action reports of an encounter with a LEO in the field.

 

[dingus]

I've yet to see a legal opinion posted on the topic. All the baffle gab and self-justification, despite it's logic, isn't worth a pinch of bear scat in court.

No need to convince me about the utility of a pistol in the bush, 'antique' or otherwise. I live on a wood lot 60 kms out of town, on a lake in the boonies. My closest neighbours are moose, deer and bear.
I eat breakfast watching a cow moose and her two year old calf grazing across the lake, 250 yds. away. Now that the rut is on, the calf has been given the boot and Mama Moose is being courted by a young bull.
A friend of mine 10 kms closer to town has been charged by a bear that actually took a swipe at him. I can't get a bear to do anything other than high tail it from me.

What I think is happening here is that some good ol' boys who have an aversion to registered handguns (and who don't hold a placer miner's licence, trapper's licence, etc.) on principle are trying to make a case for packing a pistol in the bush based on the dubious validity of a letter of 'antique' status.

Just taking a guess, I'd say many of them are not the bush men they are trying to make out. I've seen a lot of urban wanna-be 'Crocodile Dundee' types shoot and it's not impressive. Put a clock on them, add a little stress and it becomes laughable. IPSC shooters and CAS shooters know what I'm talking about, and we aren't fighting for our lives.

Wanna see how good you are with your low powered 'antique' pop gun with an elevated heart rate? Get back 25 yds with your holstered 'antique' and run like hell to the firing point. Draw and fire it at an animal silhouette as fast as you can.

Two of my mates (both forestry employees) have taken part in a 'charging bear' scenario with a fast moving target coming at them on a track. They are standing ready, shotgun at 'Port Arms' expecting the 'charge'. Most are lucky to get off more than a couple of rds and the hits are often less than stellar.
The most common problem is short stroking pump action shotguns. Semi-autos do better.

If you think you can't be busted for packing a folding knife or pocket knife, then don't get caught up in a riot situation like the infamous Stanley Cup 'game 7' Vancouver riot. A rock, a beer bottle, a tire iron, a pocket knife will not be looked upon as innocent. Weaponry of any kind at a public gathering is a no-no.

We all knew or know a guy, a 'friend of a friend', etc. who did this that or the other thing, packing a gun openly on the ranch, etc. The opinion of a retired cop from another era is irrelevant. I doubt that the there is a class on the packing of 'antique' firearms being taught currently at the RCMP Depot or at the Justice Institute of BC.

Once was time the packing of a pistol didn't raise an eye brow in polite society. The historic pictures validate this. That era is long gone, along with the buffalo and the open range.

No Ones foaming at the mouth im, just commenting on your Post is all.
Maby re read your own post here ^
Your coments are way outa line.
Dubious validity of our RCMP letters and crocodile dundee Types.
Antique Pop guns ect.
I had a Trappers Licence for 20+ years dont do it anymore and my 44 and 45 and 50 caliber antique handguns can do more than shoot pop cans.
You obviously know nothing about antique handgun cartridges and there power when loaded correctly

As to my posts Im just calling you on your need for Proof.
If the head CFO office in B.C says its ok its OK!
They use the same set of Transport and use regs i have to make that decision.
If your so concerned about this proof find out for yourself call your CFO officer.
The CFO Officers here said yes you can do it so im doing it.
They based this decision on a 2 hr meeting reading everything they could find going by the RCMP and the transport and use Regs.

 

[scianna54]

No Ones foaming at the mouth im, just commenting on your Post is all.
Maby re read your own post here ^
Your coments are way outa line.
Dubious validity of our RCMP letters and crocodile dundee Types.
Antique Pop guns ect.
I had a Trappers Licence for 20+ years dont do it anymore and my 44 and 45 and 50 caliber antique handguns can do more than shoot pop cans.
You obviously know nothing about antique handgun cartridges and there power when loaded correctly

As to my posts Im just calling you on your need for Proof.
If the head CFO office in B.C says its ok its OK!
They use the same set of Transport and use regs i have to make that decision.
If your so concerned about this proof find out for yourself call your CFO officer.
The CFO Officers here said yes you can do it so im doing it.
They based this decision on a 2 hr meeting reading everything they could find going by the RCMP and the transport and use Regs.

What exactly? Did they say it's OK to carry a loaded antique handgun in the bush?

Or did they compare it to non restricted.

It's not clear what you are posting.

 

[Win 38-55]

Sharps 63, nowhere in the criminal code does it state that it is alright to carry a loaded Winchester 30-30 in the bush. In fact, nowhere in the criminal code does it state that it is alright to carry a loaded non-restricted firearm of any sort in the bush. I've never seen a legal opinion on it either. So why do thousands of people do it? Because the law does not give us freedoms, it restricts them. Big difference. So if the law does not restrict our freedom to carry a loaded 30-30 in the bush, or a loaded flintlock pistol in the bush, or a sling shot in the bush, we are free do to it. Unless there is a law that restricts our freedom in a given area, we are free to enjoy that freedom.

What we must do is to enjoy our freedoms safely and responsibly and with discretion so that the government does not pass a law that restricts our freedom in that area.

 

[werewolf]

Funny you should mention the elevated heart rate thing, I try to do exactly that at least once per range session, great for hunting, or any other stressful shooting situation, like competitions etc. And although I'm not about to bend over, I also don't believe that every cop is out to get us either.

 

[nessy357]

Just remember , it's only a discussion on the internet,you don't have to value eveyone's opinion, but we do need to keep it civil, if we're going to keep this discussion.
Cheers nessy.

 

[Sharps '63]

OK, now that we've vented our spleens and can play nice, let's review ....

For a start, I am the owner of a beautiful lettered 'antique' handgun. I recently flipped another to a very happy owner when he made me an offer I couldn't refuse. I also own both an immaculate Colt NS in .455 and a MK VI Webley; not 'antique' but chambered in an antique cartridge.
So, I'm well aware of the potential of 'antique' cartridges. I get exposed to others in Cowboy Actin Shooting.

Win 38-55 is right in what he says about the carry of non-restricted rifles in the bush. It isn't clear that one can do so legally out of hunting season or without a hunting licence. We assume it's OK for the reasons he mentions.
But get caught in the bush with a .22 plinking during hunting season and you will be deemed to be hunting and had better have a licence.

Now, in the event of a worst possible scenario and one of us is charged by an over zealous, uninformed LEO for packing an 'antique' pistol, I sincerely hope it isn't one of our spelling and grammatically challenged brothers who decides to represent himself in court.
Waving his letter of 'antique' status before the judge and presenting anecdotal conversations with unknown bureaucrats as evidence isn't going to cut it. If that information was on letter head and SIGNED by a representative of the CPFO, it would be another matter. It would also set a precedent for other provinces.
The mere fact that one feels the need to pack all this paper work in the bush suggests to me that it is indeed a grey area and the matter needs to be resolved before it becomes a serious legal matter for someone.

I agree that laws restrict only the law-abiding. Criminals by nature disregard any and all laws. Every since the advent of 'gun control', things have gone to hell in a hand basket. If it worked, Vancouver city streets wouldn't be shooting galleries.

 

[dingus]

What exactly? Did they say it's OK to carry a loaded antique handgun in the bush?

Or did they compare it to non restricted.

It's not clear what you are posting.

Well its not like the frist time i posted this info.
I called asked them (about 3 or 4 years ago) was it ok to take my antique handgun into the areas where i shoot my non restricteds and target shoot with them.
I told the CFO i thought based on the info it was legal to holster my antique handgun once i got to the use area and walk into the woods with it.
I never asked if it could be loaded but did ask can i shoot it at targets i set up.
I called and asked because like alot of guys on here i wanted to know for sure so i would not get into troble.
They had the meeting with all the CFOs that were there at the time.
the CFO didnt just make the decission willy nilly they had a meeting as i have posted before that took a few hours and then told me based on the information in the regs YES i could do that.
So i said thanks and left it at that. They had never been asked this question before they have my phone number if they decided i was in fact breaking the law.
I have never been called back on this.

I carry a set of the transport and use Regs with the sections high lighted.
some of you guys need to read then re read the transport and use regs over and over till it sinks in.
I admit its confuseing when you read the regs front to back but dont forget the section that says a bunch of the sections do not apply to antique firearms.

If anyone gets Charged with carrying there antique handgun in the woods then the best thing to do is get a lawyer as any decent lawyer would not even see this go to court.
Thats provideing your not breaking some other laws at the time like shooting from a road or out of your truck ect.
Anyone can get charged for anything any time that dont meen there breaking any laws.

 

[Win 38-55]

...Waving his letter of 'antique' status before the judge and presenting anecdotal conversations with unknown bureaucrats as evidence isn't going to cut it. If that information was on letter head and SIGNED by a representative of the CPFO, it would be another matter. It would also set a precedent for other provinces.
The mere fact that one feels the need to pack all this paper work in the bush suggests to me that it is indeed a grey area and the matter needs to be resolved before it becomes a serious legal matter for someone.

A couple thoughts by way of response ....

1. We don't present anecdotal conversations in court, nor would something signed by a representative of the CPFO be the issue in court. It is the criminal code that would be the focus in court. The criminal code does not restrict the carrying of antique non-firearms in the bush or even non-restricted firearms.
2. Packing paper work does not suggest that something is a grey area. Quite the opposite, it eliminates grey areas; it shows everything is in order. That is why I 'pack' my paper work for antique pistols when I am bringing them through Canada Customs, and I've done it three times in person. I don't ask them if it is alright; I already know that the law does not restrict my freedom to bring an antique pistol into Canada without any PAL and without any ATT, so I inform them that I am bringing an antique pistol into Canada and I present them with my RCMP letter. No problem. I would do the same in the bush. Papers show that everything is legit.
3. This idea that you can't do anything unless you have a letter of permission is bogus. I've spent time in North Korea. In North Korea you have no freedom to do anything unless it is granted to you by the law. In Canada, it is the opposite. You have the freedom to do whatever you want provided it is not restricted by law.

Bottom Line: Sharps 63, with all due respect, I think the underlying problem I have with the way you think is that you seem to want the government to not only tell us what we cannot do, but you also want the government to tell us what we can do. That mentality is not something I would like to encourage. The moment you say to a bureaucrat, "the law does not restrict my freedom to do such-and-such but I would rather place my freedom to do such-and-such in whether or not you are willing to give me a signed letter of permission to do such-and-such", then we have taken a big step toward the kind of society they have in North Korea. If the law does not restrict your freedom to do such-and-such then you can exercise your freedom to do such-and-such and you don't need a letter from a bureaucrat to give you permission to do such-and-such.

 

[burnt_servo]

Win 38-55 is right in what he says about the carry of non-restricted rifles in the bush. It isn't clear that one can do so legally out of hunting season or without a hunting licence.

We assume it's OK for the reasons he mentions.
But get caught in the bush with a .22 plinking during hunting season and you will be deemed to be hunting and had better have a licence.

.

first off i don't think there is a province or territory in canada that allows handgun hunting .

neither is it a requirement to have a valid hunting license when carrying any firearm ANYWHERE !!! this includes " non firearms " ( antiques ) .

if your not hunting , why do you need a hunting license ?

going to the pal system did away with needing a hunting license .

if your out with your antique handgun all you are legally allowed to do is shoot at targets , in the exact same area's you are legally allowed to discharge either nonrestricted , or restricted firearms . ( this is due to hunting laws , not the firearms act )

if you are carrying an antique , you need to have a copy of a letter stating the antique status of your weapon , a copy of the firearms act would help too . ( not a requirement , just a useful education tool ) .

packing paperwork is not a grey area . if you where legally carrying a restricted in the bush , you would have to pack paperwork stating you are allowed to carry .

if you are packing a antique which resembles a restricted it is wise to pack paper work stating that this is a antique and you are legally allowed to be carryng .

even carrying a nonrestricted it is still a requirement to carry your lgr papers .

grey area , NO ..... education work , YES .

if you not acting like a ass with your antique , no one will pay any attention to you .






just a thought , carrying a maresleg / ranchhand , is not much different than carrying a antique in the sense that the maresleg resembles a restricted beacuse it oal in under 26 inches .

a person carrying one of these after the lgr is gone might want to consider carrying either old lgr certs , or maybe the frt # or something similar . this is only to educate the ignorant with powers to make your life hell .

 

[tactical870]

first off i don't think there is a province or territory in canada that allows handgun hunting .

It's not illegal to hunt with a handgun in Ontario....

 

[burnt_servo]

It's not illegal to hunt with a handgun in Ontario....

not to get side tracked , but

so has anyone actually gotten the proper paper work to use a handgun ( non antique ) for hunting ?

 

[vviking]

Unless there is a law that restricts our freedom in a given area, we are free to enjoy that freedom.

What we must do is to enjoy our freedoms safely and responsibly and with discretion so that the government does not pass a law that restricts our freedom in that area.

I also don't believe that every cop is out to get us either.

If anyone gets Charged with carrying there antique handgun in the woods then the best thing to do is get a lawyer as any decent lawyer would not even see this go to court.

Anyone can get charged for anything any time that dont meen there breaking any laws.

A couple thoughts by way of response ....


Bottom Line: Sharps 63, with all due respect, I think the underlying problem I have with the way you think is that you seem to want the government to not only tell us what we cannot do, but you also want the government to tell us what we can do. That mentality is not something I would like to encourage. The moment you say to a bureaucrat, "the law does not restrict my freedom to do such-and-such but I would rather place my freedom to do such-and-such in whether or not you are willing to give me a signed letter of permission to do such-and-such", then we have taken a big step toward the kind of society they have in North Korea. If the law does not restrict your freedom to do such-and-such then you can exercise your freedom to do such-and-such and you don't need a letter from a bureaucrat to give you permission to do such-and-such.

As soon as you conceal a antique pistol it turns in to a modern handgun according to the law. So don't break the law.

If you feel justified under law and feel the need to pack your 'antique' pistol, then by all means do so. I still await the 'been-there-done-that' after action reports of an encounter with a LEO in the field.

if you not acting like a ass with your antique , no one will pay any attention to you .

Pretty much sums it up for me.
Thanks for the thread 38-55. Good stuff.

 

[tactical870]

so has anyone actually gotten the proper paper work to use a handgun ( non antique ) for hunting ?

Not likely.... But policy and the law are two different things. To say that you can't be hunting if you are in the bush with an antique handgun is incorrect. But once again.....

if you not acting like a ass with your antique , no one will pay any attention to you .