Concealed weapon or not: The bush and animal protection

Win 38 55 Wrote..
Bottom Line: Sharps 63, with all due respect, I think the underlying problem I have with the way you think is that you seem to want the government to not only tell us what we cannot do, but you also want the government to tell us what we can do. That mentality is not something I would like to encourage. The moment you say to a bureaucrat, "the law does not restrict my freedom to do such-and-such but I would rather place my freedom to do such-and-such in whether or not you are willing to give me a signed letter of permission to do such-and-such", then we have taken a big step toward the kind of society they have in North Korea. If the law does not restrict your freedom to do such-and-such then you can exercise your freedom to do such-and-such and you don't need a letter from a bureaucrat to give you permission to do such-and-such.[/QUOTE]

This is so right on ^
Well said!
My grammer might suck but Wins is right on :D
I asked the CFOs for a Letter saying it was OK to transport my antique in the woods to target shoot. there responce was that i did not need any such letter its right there in the regs i can use my antique anywhere a non restricted can be used end of problem.
 
My fear has always been, not with those in this community or frankly with any mature, discreet adult, but with some immature person reading these posts and deciding to be beligerant and press the case of open carry of antique firearm, especially pistol, Anywhere.

You can legally go most anywhere in public with an unloaded non-restricted firearm, much the same as with an Antique. You will have less problems with the Law and the public in general, however, if you restrict your activities to unpopulated/wilderness areas BUT that is not what the LAW says. It is in fact what prudence dictates but that is no guarantee that someone, through beligerance or ignorance and immaturity, will not bring public attention to this legitamate fact and some polititian will introduce measures to save us all from this horrific breach in firearms law.
 
Pete04 said:
My fear has always been, not with those in this community or frankly with any mature, discreet adult, but with some immature person reading these posts and deciding to be beligerant and press the case of open carry of antique firearm, especially pistol, Anywhere.
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That is why, in one of my earlier posts, I wrote, "Apart from historical re-enactments, if a fellow insists on swaggering downtown with his Brown Bess or his flintlock pistol, then he is a fool who should immediately get rid of his antiques and find something safer to do, like stamp collecting or something. He may also wish to book an appointment with a psychologist."

In a town or city, there are other things a person can be charged with .... brandishing a weapon ... public mischief .... there are just too many opportunities to experience a high risk take-down for any one foolish enough to go strutting downtown with any thing that even resembles a firearm.

As most of us, hopefully all of us, agree, we need to exercise discretion so as not to alarm the uninformed or provoke problems that could easily have been avoided.
 
the bottom line

I think the message is - CYOA as best as you can. If that means carrying a copy of your 'antique' letter and a copy of the firearms act with pertinent clauses highlighted, so be it.

I think it's obvious that I have little to no trust or faith in our LEOs when it comes to firearms law knowledge and interpretation. A 'man-with-a-gun' call gets such an overkill (pun intended) in response that you'd think Ghaddafi was taking up residence.

As for being found in the bush with a gun in a hunting environment while not in possession of a licence, I wouldn't push it. I've been stopped at the infamous Cache Creek game stop, asked by a CO if I was going hunting (I was wearing camo) and asked to produce my licence. I did; last year's.
Next question - "Do you have any firearms with you, Sir?" Response - "Yes." "Where are they, Sir?" Response - "Locked in the back of the truck in hard cases." "Pull over there, Sir."

I did. Next man on the scene is an RCMP member. Briefed by the CO, he announces that he is going to confiscate my firearms. When I asked why, I'm informed that I don't have a valid hunting licence. This was before long gun registration and I had time left on the old 5 year provincial firearms licence I had.
I asked if I was in a hunting environment or parked on Highway 97 talking to a cop. This caused a little consternation and embarrassment and I was admonished to be sure to renew my licence before hunting. Like, Duhh ....

I confess to fearing our police a LOT more than I fear anything in the bush. Nothing is going to happen to me out there that God and I can't handle.The less I see of LEOs, the less I hear of them, the better.

Take care, my friends. I wish you all the best in packing and using your 'antique' pistols in the woods. I sincerely hope not to ever hear of any of you getting busted and having to defend yourselves in court.
If I ever do, I'll be calling on some of you as 'expert' witnesses!
 
Sharps.

It is good to hear of your experiences. Just like most of us 'nutz, and our inevitable dealings with the cops, some are good and some not so hot.

This forum offers all of us considerable knowledge, mixed in amoungst the opinions and differing points of view.
The benefits accrue over time, as we, a growing group, inform each other.

In my own short time as member and antique user, the worth of this board has been invaluable. Some experienced members have gone out of their way to bring along this very green greenhorn, and all have at the least been patient.

Your point is not lost, it's just that so many of us are so bone tired of retreat, and this we can do within the law as it stands.

Discreet and quiet?, yes. That's just being smart.
Deny myself my own rights for fear of LEO's?. No.

"think of the children", our political opponent's repeat.
It's my grandson I am concerned with, and the freedoms my generation will leave intact, .... to his.
 
Thanks!

vviking

Thanks for the kind words. I have difficulty dealing with some of the less erudite on the forum. They're the kind I like to avoid in person as meaningful discussion gets to be difficult, if not impossible.

Like you said, I think we all gained something from the discussion. I learned that until I hear the outcome of someone being interdicted with an 'antique' in the boonies, my pistols stay at home. If ever I feel the need to carry, it will be done discreetly as prudence dictates.

Over the years, I watched us retreat and lose time and again in the law courts and the court of public opinion. Hence my utter disgust and distrust of the law and LEOs. They are not my 'friends' ever since the government started to regard gun owners as CIW (criminals in waiting).
They may not agree personally, but they will follow orders. I'm ex-Army and I know the mentality and the group loyalty mind set.

A few years back, a couple of COs (one green horn, t'other the 'old hand') walked up behind me as I sat watching the view towards the Empire Valley from the Churn Creek area. Once satisfied that I wasn't breaking any laws, they approached me if I was camped at a certain location. When I said "Yes.", I was asked who shot the wolf. I said "What wolf?" and was 'asked' to meet them back at our camp.

They checked our licences to see what we had tags for. The "wolf" pelt in question was a bear hide from a bear shot the previous day. We all denied shooting a "wolf", giving each other the 'wink-wink' look as we played innocent. They thought they had us on a bust for shooting a wolf without a licence.
These are guys I want to deal with regarding the legality of an 'antique' pistol in the woods? Yeah, right ..... They would know less about guns than animal pelts.
 
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Sharps 63, your experiences underscore the need to know what the law actually says, and carry some documentation so that we have something of substance with which to respond to a LEO who is tempted to behave in an unethical way. If all LEO's were our 'friends' we would not need to carry any papers to prove that what we are doing is legal. In real life, the LEO's primary responsibility is to enforce the law, not be our friend. Some, overstep their bounds and misuse their authority. That is why I carry the relevant documents and, failing that, know how to file a formal complaint against an officer if he/she is out of line. Having said that, I hope that none of us would broad brush all LEO's or CO's as either our friends or our enemies. Like any other humans there are good ones and bad ones. Know what legal recourse you have to bring the bad ones to account and file a formal complaint that is accurate and as well documented as possible. There is far too little of that in my observation. With the decision of the Vancouver police, for example, to use cellphone recordings to arrest law-breakers in the Vancouver riots, an interesting precedent has been set. You can now record anything that you feel is possibly at odds with the law, including a conversation with a LEO who is crossing the line. Your cellphone can be your friend and help increase accountability in all areas.
 
Win 38-55 said:
With the decision of the Vancouver police, for example, to use cellphone recordings to arrest law-breakers in the Vancouver riots, an interesting precedent has been set. You can now record anything that you feel is possibly at odds with the law, including a conversation with a LEO who is crossing the line. Your cellphone can be your friend and help increase accountability in all areas.
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I've also advised people who are stopped and being treated unfairly to use their cellphones to dial 911. That call will be recorded and you can easily relay what is happening to the dispatcher. Not only does this provide evidence that you've notified the officer that he/she is acting outside the law, but it could save your ass in court should things go south. Chances are your complaint via 911 will also be taken seriously from the start and it's likely that any LEO's involved will be very careful from that point forward.
 
I have two antique handguns made in the 1860's and started a thread about where to legally shoot them in the bush in the Vancouver area. It turned out that I would have to drive a lot further than the range in Poco to get to an area where it would be legal to use these guns. I have decided to limit the use of these guns to an approved range to avoid any possible hassles in the bush and also I like to use my "restricted" reproductions of old guns at the same time.
The main concern for everyone that has Antique status guns is to prevent any further regulations being enacted due to flagrant abuse of the existing laws.
 
Skinny 1950 said:
I have two antique handguns made in the 1860's and started a thread about where to legally shoot them in the bush in the Vancouver area. It turned out that I would have to drive a lot further than the range in Poco to get to an area where it would be legal to use these guns. I have decided to limit the use of these guns to an approved range to avoid any possible hassles in the bush and also I like to use my "restricted" reproductions of old guns at the same time.
The main concern for everyone that has Antique status guns is to prevent any further regulations being enacted due to flagrant abuse of the existing laws.
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I agree^ when i shoot my antique handguns its at the approved gun Range 99% of the time.
I pack them in the bush my "reason" being i might want to target shoot.
its my reason for haveing my gun with me is all not to blast the crap outa everything in site.
Just because i want to pack my antiques with me does not mean i am not responsible with them.
The range is the best place to target shoot with no worries or stress !
 
cell phones

Cell phone cameras have been instrumental in several cases of police brutality, caught by alert citizens. Remember Dzikanski (spelling?) and the guy who got kicked in the head by a Kelowna cop? And the Seattle cop who gunned own that native artist just out of camera range?

While we do have a cell phone, we live beyond the service area. I'd need a SAT phone. My wife carries it on her daily 120 km round trip commute to school. In any case, I can barely receive and dial calls with it. Somehow there doesn't seem to be much connection between cell phones and 'antique' firearms. I'm not of the 'wired' generation and I can't communicate in 'text-speak'.

Since posting last, I have been hunting, covering several kms on foot after a short drive to my usual haunts. In hand was my Shiloh 50-70 carbine. Several does turned up, some fresh bear scat and the very fresh hide and gut pile of a poached moose calf.
You need an LEH draw here to show a spike bull moose and calves are not legal in this region. There are law breakers out there and I'd like to encounter one. That's when a pistol might prove useful ..... could get ugly quickly.

Because of my boonie environment, I could easily justify packing a handgun. Especially since I'm often following a game trail in dense bush with limited visibility. But if charged by any critter, I'd have little time to even react, let alone draw and fire a pistol. Mostly, it would encumber me and restrict movement and mobility. I've got holsters coming out my ears and I've never been inclined to wear one.
A long shot here is 50 yds; 100 in a clear cut. Most of the game I encounter is under 75 yds. Now - IF we could hunt with a pistol ..... but it sure wouldn't be an anemic 'antique' pistol. More like a .44 Spl. or .45 Colt.

This is one of the things that bugs me about the keyboard kommandos - they live in a fantasy world and seldom if ever really get into the woods where the paw hits the ground. Like the Shiloh forum types that figure they can't go 'hunting' on a game preserve without a bandolier of ammo that would drown me if I ever fell into a creek. I wear a belt slide with 6 rds. If I need more than that, maybe the bear oughta win that round ..... ;>)
 
Sharps '63 said:
... Now - IF we could hunt with a pistol ..... but it sure wouldn't be an anemic 'antique' pistol. More like a .44 Spl. or .45 Colt.
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By gum, then you might be interested in the 44 Russian or the 45 Schofield ..... and there are plenty of legal antiques chambered in 44 Spl with RCMP letters. I have a legal antique 1st gen Colt SAA chambered in 45 Schofield and I load it to original 45 Colt ballistics ..... 250 grain cast bullets at 850 fps.

On the other hand, if you have a 50-70 in hand, then you don't need a pistol. On the other hand, if you've spent a lot of time in the bush, you will know that most of the time, there are a lot of things to be done that require both hands and you can't be occupying one hand with a rifle all the time. That is where a sidearm can come in useful once or twice in a lifetime, but that once or twice makes it worth having. Chances are, however, a fellow will never have to use it to protect his life or the life of his wife or children in the bush .... but it can sure be enjoyable to be able to target shoot out in the bush.
 
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calibre choice

Actually, I meant a pistol with a 'modern' .44 Spl. or .45 load. I've got four .44 Magnums (three pistols, one B-92) and I can't remember the last time I fired a magnum rd in any of them; especially the 4" M29.

I know one one case where the presence of a handgun was instrumental in providing peace of mind. After friend was camping with his attractive wife and two (one teen, t'other pre-teen) daughters when a pair of disheveled red necks walked into their camp. These guys had been living rough for quite a spell. His wife told my pal that she noticed them eyeing up his daughters.
He could tell they were sizing him up and looking to see what weaponry might be around, so he produced his 6" S&W M19 and tucked it into the back of his pants.
The red necks found a reason to leave .....

As for plinking in the bush with a handgun, that's one of the reasons I hunt alone. Multiple shots may mean a call for help. Many multiple shots means the peace and quiet I go out there for is shattered. It's also likely to attract attention from a CO on patrol, or others.
When I used to hunt with others (usually urban types that feel the need for a 10" Bowie knife on their belts), I had to educate them not to 'plink' at targets of opportunity (chipmunks, squirrels, ravens) with their .308s and .30-'06s. To me, the report of a rifle means 'game down' and I come to help drag it out.

Further to the above .... recently in the CFD, there was an item from the (Bellville Intelligencer?) dated Oct.03 re: some hunters wearing blaze orange being taken down by a SWAT team. Their crime? Someone reported "multiple shots" within earshot of their residence! The hunters were lawfully after ducks and geese.
Even in my semi-remote environment, there are isolated farms, logging and ranch operations, as well as various forestry types, mushroom pickers and seed cone gatherers. A sure way to attract their attention would be "multiple gunshots". Many have radios and sat phones and all it would take is a call from a 'concerned citizen' to bring a response. This is something I prefer not to risk.
 
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This thread has me a bit confused...

So you can open carry an antique pistol in an area you can discharge a firearm?
What is a LEO challenges that?
Where can you get the paperwork that indicates that?
How old is an antique?
What is a reasonable (not high) price for an antique?

I don't want myself in court when I have to prove this :(
 
alexik said:
This thread has me a bit confused...

So you can open carry an antique pistol in an area you can discharge a firearm?
What is a LEO challenges that?
Where can you get the paperwork that indicates that?
How old is an antique?
What is a reasonable (not high) price for an antique?

I don't want myself in court when I have to prove this :(
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http://205.193.86.86/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/antique-historique-eng.htm

I understand that revolvers and pistols that meet antique status are permitted to be fired in any area you can legally discharge any firearm

I think we are all still waiting to see who may be the test case regarding the LEO challenge. it's a gray area.

I see that many people get an antique status letter from the RCMP but this is not a legal requirement, but may help.I keep the customs papers and bill of sale with mine when in bush, we need to exercise this privilege to carry, and this being said, being discrete is important because if you scare the crap out of Joe public they(the powers that be) will be hell bent to take this away from us

antique firearms are expensive, shooters even more so, but good deals can be found.

there is a lot of helpful information on this site
 
I keep my antique guns at the range 99.5% of the time. I have quite a few pocket sized revolvers and acouple larger military revolvers now all of which are shooters but I don't fire them more than half a dozen times per year.

I want them to stay in the good condition and not abuse the piss out of them.

I take great pleasure in knowing that they will work 100% if I so need them to however when the situation arises.
 
i see no reason for carrying a antique pistol most you should use under powered loads and one screw up and it could wreck it for all of us

most ceap ones are going to be small cal not really any stoping power in todays standards

your better off with a shotgun or rifle if you want a pistol like gun get a mare's leg in .44 mag many say there useless but there easyer to shoot then one thinks

if you cant carry a rifle or shotgun then apply for a wilderness ATC

i carry my antiques in a holster when shooting them but thats it

if you want better carry right join me in fighting for them :)
 
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